Time to invest in a illegal gun?

[Leitmotif]

Its the Intended use of the item ... A paperclip can kill, but its designed for holding paper. Pipes have a primary use of something else. Knives have a primary use of cutting items. Cars have a primary use of transporting people. Guns have a primary use to kill and are DESIGNED to kill

Guns are used to defend. That's why the police use them. Ideally, that's why the armed forces have them.

A target rifle has a primary purpose of putting very closely spaced holes in bits of paper at ludicrous distances. Yet I'll still have a hard time getting one because of the view that 'guns are designed to kill'.

Regardless, this is the wrong argument, because no-one is going to get the criminals to give up their guns. The real question is, are you prepared to let others stand ready to defend you and yours? If so, why would you not do it yourself?

Natas: It may *look* cool in the cinema, but a shotgun would work much better.

 

[DavidJ]

Guns have ONE function... KILL. Its the typical male stereotype in SA. I am a man, so I need a gun.

It has nothing at all to do with gender - women should also have the right to carry guns for self-defence, and I think it would be good if more women did (I've known women who do).

The only "I need a gun" 'stereotype' in SA is "this is a very dangerous place where there is a good chance my life will be genuinely threatened". The murder rate is 35 times higher than where you live, so I suppose it's easy for you to criticise from your position of safety.

What about non-lethal weapons. Tazer guns, Pepper-sprays. Thats what alot of WOMEN use for self defence. Or are they not *MAN-LY* enough for a guy to carry?

No, they're just laughable as instruments for self-defence against people with guns in the typical life-threatening situations that happen hundreds of times a day in South Africa. They're useful for women in situations like rape because in general the typical unarmed or poorly armed male aggressor can overpower the average unarmed female victim. With over 150 reported rapes a day here and hundreds more attempted rapes, they remain very useful in that niche. But a man is thousands of times more likely to have his life threatened in some kind of armed robbery than to be raped. Pepper spray will get you killed in no time if you try use it in e.g. a hijacking or armed robbery in the home.

Anyway, no matter all the pro-/anti- gun arguments: Every person (male and female) has a fundamental right to defend themselves to whatever extent necessary if their lives are being threatened by someone else, and that's just the "bottom line". I see both sides of the argument, but at the end of the day you can't get away from that. To basically tell some individuals that they must, in effect, stand back and be killed or allow their family to be killed, effectively for some supposed 'greater good to society', is immoral and unconscionable. Guns may not be perfect for self-defence but they're the best option, and anyway, it's not up to you to decide FOR other people how they choose to defend themselves.

 

[jontyB]

This conversation is really going nowhere now.

 

[RichardP]

Guns are used to defend. That's why the police use them. Ideally, that's why the armed forces have them.

Yes, You defend yourself BY KILLING your opponent. hence, guns are designed to kill

A target rifle has a primary purpose of putting very closely spaced holes in bits of paper at ludicrous distances. Yet I'll still have a hard time getting one because of the view that 'guns are designed to kill'.

Regardless, this is the wrong argument, because no-one is going to get the criminals to give up their guns. The real question is, are you prepared to let others stand ready to defend you and yours? If so, why would you not do it yourself?

One of the reasons I left SA was for reasons of gun ownership and security. I am not disputing that SA is dangerous, but I REFUSE point blank (no pun intended) of buying a gun just to feel 'Protected' all due the fact the cops are a waste of time.

Its a vicious circle... you get more guns, then the criminals get more guns so you get a bigger caliber - then the criminals do the same. Its never ending.

 

[Leitmotif]

Yes, You defend yourself BY KILLING your opponent. hence, guns are designed to kill

Difference of emphasis. My view is that a bad person who was trying to harm you or yours is now dead and you or yours are still alive and hopefully unharmed. How do you justify the idea that a criminal is worth more than you?

One of the reasons I left SA was for reasons of gun ownership and security. I am not disputing that SA is dangerous, but I REFUSE point blank (no pun intended) of buying a gun just to feel 'Protected' all due the fact the cops are a waste of time.

Ah, forgot that you're not 'on the ground'. I don't want to leave, and if the other choice is to be armed, then hand me my gun.

Its a vicious circle... you get more guns, then the criminals get more guns so you get a bigger caliber - then the criminals do the same. Its never ending.

Criminals get what they can, and criminals have had weapons since the days of the wild west. Your 'caliber war' doesn't exist.

This conversation is really going nowhere now.

I agree.

 

[DavidJ]

Its a vicious circle... you get more guns, then the criminals get more guns so you get a bigger caliber - then the criminals do the same. Its never ending.

I don't agree at all. It's true that there will always be a few criminals who will always try take things to the next extreme, but it's a tiny percentage of the current crop of criminals. Generally people are not "either criminals, or not"; criminal decisions are basically based on a perceived risk/reward proposition weighed against the individual's appetite for risk and level of desire to do the right thing. I'm one of those people who believe that if every person carried a gun (and was trained to use it properly), crime would be far lower, because the "risk" portion of the risk/reward 'calculation' would increase *significantly*. Many more criminals would opt for an honest living instead --- and this actually creates an 'upward spiral', because as some criminals choose an honest living, the economy grows, which in turn creates jobs and makes it even easier for others in turn to make an honest living, and so on.

 

[DavidJ]

While I understand pupa's argument - I think it is rubbish. Owning an illegal gun just makes you a criminal as well - your standing in a court of law will be even less than if you own a licensed arm.

I think the general point is that if one has to choose between an unlicensed firearm and NO firearm (because licensed arms are increasingly difficult to get), then it's better to be standing in that court of law than six feet under after armed robbers broke in.

 

[spiderz]

Its the Intended use of the item ... A paperclip can kill, but its designed for holding paper. Pipes have a primary use of something else. Knives have a primary use of cutting items. Cars have a primary use of transporting people. Guns have a primary use to kill and are DESIGNED to kill

BullSh*t!
a Guns primary use is to fire a projectile.
A gun and a knife are exactly the same. Both can be used to kill, but theyu will never be able to do that on their own.

 

[legalizefullautos]

So what do you do while waiting for your "armed responce" / "police" to show up? Make the criminals some tea? And why would you entrust your life to people who is more poorly paid than the car guards? I'd rather get a gun and defend myself. (previbly legal gun )

"I want the freedom to have a gun, and the security never to have to use it. One follows from the other." (Unknown)

all i want to know is why the hell full autos are illegal it is a free country, the only difference is full autos are more fun. also how about instead of all the people that have straight minds (the right wings) we send all you ****ing ***** ass democrats to auschwitz (where you deserve to go) so america can realy be free

 

[bwana]

all i want to know is why the hell full autos are illegal it is a free country, the only difference is full autos are more fun. also how about instead of all the people that have straight minds (the right wings) we send all you ****ing ***** ass democrats to auschwitz (where you deserve to go) so america can realy be free

Um - this isnt America.

 

[supersunbird]

And anyway, I have yet to see a liberal dictator. Dictators are conservative. Conclusion? Liberals set you free!

 

[Leitmotif]

all i want to know is why the hell full autos are illegal it is a free country, the only difference is full autos are more fun. also how about instead of all the people that have straight minds (the right wings) we send all you ****ing ***** ass democrats to auschwitz (where you deserve to go) so america can realy be free

Full-autos are military weapons. For some reason governments don't like their citizens being armed with the same gear as the army has. All sorts of dark connotations there, of the 'subjects vs. citizens' variety.

Full autos may be fun, but they're impractical unless you're highly trained in their use. For practical shooting I'd rather have my Hk. Then again, as the Box o' Truth says - pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles.

I'm assuming you want to send the democrats on a sightseeing tour of Auschwitz. The alternative is horrifying.

Please note, this is a proudly South African forum. Boerewors? Klippies 'n coke? I'm sure we can make you comfortable anyway, as long as you promise not to shoot up the braai...

Full-autos are legal in most states in the US, as long as you pay for a $300 NFA tax stamp. Must be nice to at least have the freedom to own an MP5 if you want one.

 

[Angelo]

The image that comes to mind when thinking of Leitmotif

 

[Getafix]

The image that comes to mind when thinking of Leitmotif

LM will never use a AK47.

They are seldom legit.

Cowards and "freedom fighters" used them for ages in Africa. Not to mention our struggle heroes who never fired at a bloke if he might fire back.

Pity. One of the best assault rifles ever made.

 

[Leitmotif]

The image that comes to mind when thinking of Leitmotif

<johnrambo>You sayin' I'm a pussy?</johnrambo>

Just because I advocate guns doesn't mean I want a fully-automatic rifle - or that I'm a trigger-happy avenger type. In person I'm polite, friendly, quiet and helpful. Just like a lot of other gun advocates.

 

[Angelo]

Not to mention our struggle heroes who never fired at a bloke if he might fire back.

Just wait till the chickens come home to roost then you'll be singing a different tune! (and it definitely won't be Mshini wam')

 

[jontyB]

Just wait till the chickens come home to roost then you'll be singing a different tune! (and it definitely won't be Mshini wam')

What are you talking about?

 

[Leitmotif]

I'd also like to know. Sounds like he's having a "when the revolution comes you'll be first against the wall" moment.

 

[Angelo]

What are you talking about?

Went a bit overboard, wasnt' supposed to say that here...slip of the tongue.

 

[supersunbird]

yeah, dont worry, we know about fighting too...