Today in history - Bombing of Dresden 1945

etienne_marais

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The bombing of Dresden was a British/American aerial bombing attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place during the Second World War in the European Theatre.

In four raids between 13 and 15 February 1945, 722 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city.[1]

The bombing and the resulting firestorm destroyed over 1,600 acres (6.5 km2) of the city centre.[2] An estimated 22,700[3] to 25,000[4] people were killed, although inflated casualty figures have been promulgated over the years by authors such as David Irving.

Three more USAAF air raids followed, two occurring on 2 March aimed at the city's railroad marshaling yard and one small raid on 17 April aimed at industrial areas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden
 

garyc

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The World at War series included an interview with a woman who was involved with the clean-up immediately afterwards. They piled the bodies into bathtubs. The heat had been so intense that they got ten bodies into each bathtub.
 

Compton_effect

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[video=youtube;i-wPRBkgv00]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-wPRBkgv00[/video]

I think this commentary by someone who survived the Firebombing of Dresden sums it all up.
 

Jola

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The allies suffered heavy losses in those air raids.
Not according to the statistics on Wikipedia, only 8 planes shot down.

Quite horrific attack, consequences not dissimilar to a nuclear attack.

Difficult to say whether it could be justified, the war was almost over. But the top brass had the view that any shortening of the war could be justified, similar to the view of the US against Japan.
 

Compton_effect

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Not according to the statistics on Wikipedia, only 8 planes shot down.

Quite horrific attack, consequences not dissimilar to a nuclear attack.

Difficult to say whether it could be justified, the war was almost over. But the top brass had the view that any shortening of the war could be justified, similar to the view of the US against Japan.
I think he was being sarcastic. In later years - the bomber crews who flew actually criticized Bomber Harris for this campaign.
 

Jola

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You are correct, I am thinking of an earlier raid, Bremmen 1943 - 236.
Yes, in 1943 the Luftwaffe was still fully operational, as well as the anti-aircraft guns, etc.

If you read the Wiki article it is quite clear that the Germans did not have much left with which to defend Dresden.
 

Drifter

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"The myth in Britain has been that we bombed military targets and Germans bombed civilian populations, but it is almost exactly the reverse," said Professor Overy, author of The Air War and Bomber Command.

This is no secret. The Allies decided quite early on that specific target bombing was not having major success, especially the RAF that did the night raids, with the USAAF doing day raids. They decided to change to area bombing instead. Their rationale was that the Germans did it anyway with their V1 and V2 rockets, and the bombing of London.
 

etienne_marais

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This is no secret. The Allies decided quite early on that specific target bombing was not having major success, especially the RAF that did the night raids, with the USAAF doing day raids. They decided to change to area bombing instead. Their rationale was that the Germans did it anyway with their V1 and V2 rockets, and the bombing of London.
Frankly, I don't think that that is the way most people see it, especially the multitude who do not have a stronger grasp around WWII. Historians and those with specific interest perhaps, yes.

There are other facts mostly unknown to the multitudes such as that Hitler repeatedly called for peace with Britain and wanted to avoid war and that Hitler wanted to abandon the construction of bombing airplanes to ultimately prevent the killing of innocent civilians (how does that fit in with a supposed desire to take over the world).
 

Compton_effect

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Frankly, I don't think that that is the way most people see it, especially the multitude who do not have a stronger grasp around WWII. Historians and those with specific interest perhaps, yes.

There are other facts mostly unknown to the multitudes such as that Hitler repeatedly called for peace with Britain and wanted to avoid war and that Hitler wanted to abandon the construction of bombing airplanes to ultimately prevent the killing of innocent civilians (how does that fit in with a supposed desire to take over the world).
Yes, Hitler and the high-ranking Nazi members admired the British Royal Family and wanted peace with Britain. But they also wanted the total eradication of all inferior peoples and races, as well as dominance over Europe and Russia.
 

garyc

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Frankly, I don't think that that is the way most people see it, especially the multitude who do not have a stronger grasp around WWII. Historians and those with specific interest perhaps, yes.

There are other facts mostly unknown to the multitudes such as that Hitler repeatedly called for peace with Britain and wanted to avoid war and that Hitler wanted to abandon the construction of bombing airplanes to ultimately prevent the killing of innocent civilians (how does that fit in with a supposed desire to take over the world).
Hitler's significant move towards negotiating peace was the final offer made by von Ribbentrop to Nevile Henderson. The offer was delivered at midnight with the demand that the negotiations needed to be concluded the same night. In addition, von Ribbentrop refused to hand over the list of demands associated with his offer. This was nothing more than an attempt to shift diplomatic blame to the UK, which seems to have worked to an extent since the right-wing alt-truth crowd like Buchanan still make a living writing about it.
 

Nick333

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Frankly, I don't think that that is the way most people see it, especially the multitude who do not have a stronger grasp around WWII. Historians and those with specific interest perhaps, yes.

There are other facts mostly unknown to the multitudes such as that Hitler repeatedly called for peace with Britain and wanted to avoid war and that Hitler wanted to abandon the construction of bombing airplanes to ultimately prevent the killing of innocent civilians (how does that fit in with a supposed desire to take over the world).
If only they'd just let him invade Poland and eradicate the Jewish population of Germany and the other territories he wanted.

Of course he also invaded Russia so... maybe he's imperialist ambitions extended a little beyond just Poland and other disputed territories?
 

etienne_marais

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Yes, Hitler and the high-ranking Nazi members admired the British Royal Family and wanted peace with Britain. But they also wanted the total eradication of all inferior peoples and races, as well as dominance over Europe and Russia.
The Thule society, though limited in numbers, reach and lifetime is the reason I do believe that the Holocaust could indeed have happened and that the type of mindset you mention could easily be incubated by the type of rhetoric put forth by the likes of Blavatsky. Yet, at the end of the day truth is truth and especially the early stages of the rise of National Socialism and German racial awareness
can be understood in terms of the outcome of WWI (especially the treaty of Versailles), the economic collapse and people of foreign heritage in the German fatherland who simply did not integrate and pursue German values. And of course the rise of Communism and their threats to destroy Western Civilization with a particular hatred of Germans alongside religion, nationhood, family values, morals, ethics because this was associated with the bourgeoisie. At the same time Britain itself was not all that innocent, freely allied themselves with Soviet Russia and had warmongering, unsavory characters like Churchill. Notably in the early stages of National Socialism I don't think there was an element of ridding the world of 'inferior people' and races and at the late stages it was limited to a certain type of German.
 

etienne_marais

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If only they'd just let him invade Poland and eradicate the Jewish population of Germany and the other territories he wanted.

Of course he also invaded Russia so... maybe he's imperialist ambitions extended a little beyond just Poland and other disputed territories?
Actually Hitler wanted to relocate Jews to Palestine (Haavara Agreement) and later Madagascar, if that is what you meant by 'eradicate'.

The Russia invasion was pre-emptive, Russia with it's diabolical Bolshevism made no secret of their intentions of domination and subjecting people to Communism worldwide, and had a massive millitary buildup. Stalin gave his 'defense through offense' speech in Russia as early as 1941, the idea was that the Red Army's defeat would collapse the Soviet threat.
 

Nick333

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Actually Hitler wanted to relocate Jews to Palestine (Haavara Agreement) and later Madagascar, if that is what you meant by 'eradicate'.
Granted, forced expatriation is better than genocide, but still not good. Either way, what he actually did was attempt to murder every last one he could get his hands on. Would I be wrong in assuming that you believe that he was forced to exterminate the Jews instead of deporting them by the prolonged war?

The Russia invasion was pre-emptive, Russia with it's diabolical Bolshevism made no secret of their intentions of domination and subjecting people to Communism worldwide, and had a massive millitary buildup. Stalin gave his 'defense through offense' speech in Russia as early as 1941, the idea was that the Red Army's defeat would collapse the Soviet threat.
Nonsense. It was a grab for resources.
 
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