Today in history - Bombing of Dresden 1945

Urist

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So war crimes all around because the Germans and Japanese did it first?
I guess with a war on that scale... all bets are off. Still inhumane, and so is what they did to their prisoners of war and to Berlin. There were no good guys, and Churchill definitely wasn't one either. He did what was expected of him... to help win a war.
 
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Spizz

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So war crimes all around because the Germans and Japanese did it first?
War crimes? Are there rules to dropping bombs on cities and civilians? How many are okay?

And as with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, rather 100,000 of your enemy than another single one of your own in a war you were dragged into.
 

etienne_marais

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noooooo the US did interment camps, to be fair though they did not starve or work them to death
Conditions were poor.

As this video description states Hitler's atrocities are exposed and documented but there is no balance in historical perspective:

A revealing tale of US NAZIST and FASCIST behavior during second world war. US govt directly killed innumerable German soldiers taken captive as prisoners of war (POW). Hitler atrocities are well documented and rightly so. But biased world historians remain silent about world's biggest killer machine till date - THE UNITED SATES OF AMERICA! They have been DIRECTLY involved in killing MILLIONS since the 19th century for OIL and gaining control over the world's economy.
 

Cray

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I guess with a war on that scale... all bets are off. Still inhumane, and so is what they did to their prisoners of war and to Berlin. There were no good guys, and Churchill definitely wasn't one either. He did what was expected of him... to help win a war.
The question being, did the firebombing of Dresden actually contribute in any way to that goal? Did killing all those civilians help win the war quicker?
 

Cray

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War crimes? Are there rules to dropping bombs on cities and civilians? How many are okay?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate_military_target
"In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage."

Any attack must be justified by military necessity: An attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy, it must be an attack on a military objective,[1] and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not "excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated".[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate_military_target#cite_note-military_objective-1
Civillians dying due to a force trying to bomb a factory is unfortunate but understandable, deliberately bombing civilians without a legitimate military goal is what I have a problem with...
 

etienne_marais

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Spizz

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate_military_target
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate_military_target#cite_note-military_objective-1
Civillians dying due to a force trying to bomb a factory is unfortunate but understandable, deliberately bombing civilians without a legitimate military goal is what I have a problem with...
Don't get me wrong, I also have a problem with it. But in simple terms, it's a them or us and it's impossible to judge from our position of comfort and privilege today. Not so easy when you think that this was after 6 years of war, hundreds of thousands of Allied deaths and the world still on fire

My mother was a schoolgirl evacuated during WW2 because of the Germans bombing Clydeside. She was 12 in 1941 when she was sent away. My father was in Italy in 1945 while this was going on. I never asked him (my father was a seriously non violent peaceful man), but I reckon after being shot at for the last 6 years, since the first day of the war in 1939 when him and his friends who were in the part time reserve were called up to the regular army, he would have agreed.

Indeed, my wife's father was in a POW camp in Germany after being shot out of the sky over north Italy on another bombing run to Germany in 1944. I'm sure he would also have agreed to anything that got him out of there and back home.
 

Cray

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Don't get me wrong, I also have a problem with it. But in simple terms, it's a them or us and it's impossible to judge from our position of comfort and privilege today. Not so easy when you think that this was after 6 years of war, hundreds of thousands of Allied deaths and the world still on fire

My mother was a schoolgirl evacuated during WW2 because of the Germans bombing Clydeside. She was 12 in 1941 when she was sent away. My father was in Italy in 1945 while this was going on. I never asked him (my father was a seriously non violent peaceful man), but I reckon after being shot at for the last 6 years, since the first day of the war in 1939 when him and his friends who were in the part time reserve were called up to the regular army, he would have agreed.

Indeed, my wife's father was in a POW camp in Germany after being shot out of the sky over north Italy on another bombing run to Germany in 1944. I'm sure he would also have agreed to anything that got him out of there and back home.
True enough, I guess it is a lot easier to second guess these things 60 or so years after the fact. One can only hope that something similar would not be allowed to happen again ..
 

bwana

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The Destruction of Dresden

Between 13 and 15 February 1945, the city of Dresden was destroyed by over 2,000 bombers of the RAF and the USAAF. Dresden had been chosen as a target by the Soviets. Joseph Stalin persuaded Churchill and Roosevelt at Yalta to target Dresden, which was a major receiving area for refugees. The city was swollen with civilians fleeing the Red Army's rapid and destructive advance.

On the evening of 13 February 1945, 796 Lancaster's and 9 de Havilland Mosquitos dropped 1,478 tonnes of high explosive and 1,182 tonnes of incendiary bombs between 22:14 and 22:22. Three hours later another 1,800 tonnes of bombs were dropped by a second group of Lancasters...

Erm... https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/today-in-history-bombing-of-dresden-1945.871828/

Thread merge incoming.
 

Alan

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I guess with a war on that scale... all bets are off. Still inhumane, and so is what they did to their prisoners of war and to Berlin. There were no good guys, and Churchill definitely wasn't one either. He did what was expected of him... to help win a war.
How would a 'good guy' have dealt with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan?

Perhaps the way Gandhi initially approached it by sending a personal letter to Hitler appealing to his 'humanity' and advising Brits not to violently resist a Nazi invasion.



Don't get me wrong, I also have a problem with it. But in simple terms, it's a them or us and it's impossible to judge from our position of comfort and privilege today. Not so easy when you think that this was after 6 years of war, hundreds of thousands of Allied deaths and the world still on fire

My mother was a schoolgirl evacuated during WW2 because of the Germans bombing Clydeside. She was 12 in 1941 when she was sent away. My father was in Italy in 1945 while this was going on. I never asked him (my father was a seriously non violent peaceful man), but I reckon after being shot at for the last 6 years, since the first day of the war in 1939 when him and his friends who were in the part time reserve were called up to the regular army, he would have agreed.

Indeed, my wife's father was in a POW camp in Germany after being shot out of the sky over north Italy on another bombing run to Germany in 1944. I'm sure he would also have agreed to anything that got him out of there and back home.
Indeed. It's easy with hindsight to make moral judgements, read political machinations into every decision and question whether targets were militarily justified....

Bottom line is by '45 the allied industrial war juggernaut was in full swing and was going pound the Axis powers into dust or until they unconditionally surrendered.
 

rambo919

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Civillians dying due to a force trying to bomb a factory is unfortunate but understandable, deliberately bombing civilians without a legitimate military goal is what I have a problem with...
Sadly there is a military goal: surrender by awe and fear of show of power (might is right mentality), as well as demoralization.
Basically the military goal was plain old fashioned terrorism.... ironic that
 

Spizz

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Basically the military goal was plain old fashioned terrorism.... ironic that
Bloody British.

Oh wait, my father in law languishing in a German POW camp at the time was an Afrikaner.

This is awkward.
 

rambo919

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Bloody British.

Oh wait, my father in law languishing in a German POW camp at the time was an Afrikaner.

This is awkward.
You can't compare POW camps with death camps..... except towards the end of the war.
 
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