Toyota believes large parts of the world are not ready for electric vehicles

Mike Hoxbig said:
Where do you get that figure from? Electricity is still cheaper than fuel by a long way.

The issue is the lack of quick charge stations, not the cost of electricity...
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The calculations are on here. Even with the saving, which will decrease over the next few years, it will still take you like over 10 years to make up the extra cost. Also countries which have gone this route have started introducing travel taxes to make up for lost revenue so you can't assume that it will stay cheaper. Our own EV tax partly makes up for lost revenue.

Aghori said:
Toyota are running scared. They know the future is EV but they want to keep making big profits from petrol and diesel.
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Perhaps because EV makers are not making profits.
 
w1z4rd said:
Even with current loadshedding most electric cars will have enough time to charge. A car like the Nissain leaf gets to 90% charge in less than an hour.
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I'd like to see current loadshedding stay current if everyone drove EVs.
 
Cosmik Debris said:
Where in the third world (Most of the world) are you going to sell electric cars?
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Internal combustion cars have no future, they come short on almost all counts against electric cars. Besides, every country already produces its own electricity which is far cheaper than oil.
 
w1z4rd said:
Even with current loadshedding most electric cars will have enough time to charge. A car like the Nissain leaf gets to 90% charge in less than an hour.
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Add 500 000 EV's to the grid? What now? Think it will handle that?

There are about 900 000 ICE vehicles and about 250 EV's in SA right now.
 
Bard8 said:
Internal combustion cars have no future, they come short on almost all counts against electric cars. Besides, every country already produces its own electricity which is far cheaper than oil.
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At present electricity is cheaper than oil. Wait till you ramp up demand and the grids can't cope and you have to pay to expand the grid.
 
If they can make a quick buck from electricity vehicle sales, so be it.
 
w1z4rd said:
Since most people do under 100kms a day, its less of an issue than you think.
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How many kW per day would that be? Now multiply by almost a million kW PER DAY to charge them. See what I'm speaking about?
 
zoozi said:
Toyota are really banking on hydrogen from what I've seen.
www.timeslive.co.za

Toyota says to develop alternative fuels with other Japanese carmakers

Toyota Motor Corp said on Saturday it will partner with four other Japanese vehicle makers to explore the viability of alternative green fuels for internal combustion engine cars, including hydrogen and synthetic fuels derived from biomass
www.timeslive.co.za www.timeslive.co.za
The companies, which in addition to Toyota include Mazda Motor Corp, Subaru Corp, Yamaha Motor and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, made the announcement at a racetrack in Okayama, western Japan, where Toyota is racing a hydrogen car.

Tesla went from the expensive Roadster to less expensive Model S/Model X/Model Y/Model 3 and their new $25k-odd compact is on the way, all the other manufacturers releasing EV's now. EV's are far more simple modular designs than ICE vehicles. Ignoring the obvious lack of supply of electricity to power them, the price of the cars will keep going down as these economies of scale increase, but I wonder how far?
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Maybe they are banking more on hydrogen but they are ready with an electric option.
Subaru Solterra has 160kW, 530km range. The Toyota version should be similar since its a partnership again.
www.theverge.com

Subaru reveals the Solterra SUV, its first electric vehicle

The Solterra is built on a platform co-developed by Toyota.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com
 
w1z4rd said:
Since most people do under 100kms a day, its less of an issue than you think.
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It's still an issue regardless. For a country that's scraping the bottom of the barrel by barring CFL in favour of LED I don't think we can afford any issue.

Bard8 said:
Internal combustion cars have no future, they come short on almost all counts against electric cars. Besides, every country already produces its own electricity which is far cheaper than oil.
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Except when it comes to the battery/fuel energy density. Oil have remained more or less constant but electricity costs keep increasing.
 
Mike Hoxbig said:
Where do you get that figure from? Electricity is still cheaper than fuel by a long way.

The issue is the lack of quick charge stations, not the cost of electricity...
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I'm saying the reason for an EV vehicle is not *just* carbon footprint / environment factors . In my situation, I'm already spending R200k on fuel over the 'lifetime' of the car.

The total cost of ownership of an EV is also a consideration
 
zoozi said:
Give it time, the manufacturers are all mostly on their first lines of EV's in the more premium market ala Tesla. Cheaper compact ones like VW ID3 will lead to an ID1 or something akin to a Polo. Also don't discount China's EV market. Their local brands are growing massively and eating up Tesla in China. Quality of Chinese cars are rapidly, rapidly increasing. I fully expect these cheaper EV models applicable to SA market to come out of places like China in the future. You can already see a lot of cheap Havals and Cherrys running around.
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Tesla isn’t on its first line, the first roadster is now showing it’s age with regards to the battery pack. Tesla though has a more tech approach with enhancements that are undocumented.

In regards to VW, how small can you go? You still need that battery pack.

Then China, well anything based outside of China gets eaten up there so nothing new.

Also I don’t get why everyone is on about the electricity grid, the main selling point of buying a Tesla was free fast charging which is DC-DC, I’d honestly be most worried about insurance premiums.
 
Cosmik Debris said:
How many kW per day would that be? Now multiply by almost a million kW PER DAY to charge them. See what I'm speaking about?
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kWh….you mean kWh. Not kW!

kW is power kWh energy, i.e. power over time.

Think:

kW = liters/second
kWh = liters

It’s like asking ‘how many liters/second PER DAY would that be?’…it makes no sense.

Here’s a comparison that is a little more hands on so that you can picture how many more kWh more PER DAY would be needed. It’s pretty much the same as if everyone installed a second geyser. That’s it.

Edit: An equation as proof:

Energy required to heat a volume of water in L by a certain temperature difference T.

Energy = (4.2 * L * T) / 3600

Example: 150 L geyser, heat water from 15C to 60C every day.

Energy = (4.2 * 150 * (60-15)) / 3600
Energy = 7.875 kWh

Taking into account that the average electric car has a consumption of approximately 20kWh/100km and the average driver in SA maybe travels 30-50km a day it’s a pretty good approximation.

Therefore 7.875kWh =+- 39km of electric car range per day.

So if you travel this distance and indeed charge every day it’s like adding an extra gayer to your house. I don’t see anyone shout from the hilltops that the grid will fall apart if everyone decides to add another geyser to their house… :p

Obviously you can charge once a week with your 400km range electric car so there’s that option too.
 
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DA-LION-619 said:
Tesla isn’t on its first line, the first roadster is now showing it’s age with regards to the battery pack. Tesla though has a more tech approach with enhancements that are undocumented.

In regards to VW, how small can you go? You still need that battery pack.

Then China, well anything based outside of China gets eaten up there so nothing new.

Also I don’t get why everyone is on about the electricity grid, the main selling point of buying a Tesla was free fast charging which is DC-DC, I’d honestly be most worried about insurance premiums.
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What I meant by first lines (and I said "mostly") was meant more as "most manufacturers are on their still relatively new initial electrified vehicle platforms", and they're mostly in the premium range, even if a compact size. Initial electric market needs wealthy premium buyers buying Model S's and BMW i8's to accelerate cost efficiencies and research so we can get to the point of an affordable R250k e-Polo something. Being so much simpler than combustion engines and the battery tech constantly getting cheaper and electricity being cheaper than fuel as a source, surely electric cars will eventually be cheaper in production and fuel than combustion with its 1000 of parts and fluctuating oil prices?

Well the battery pack can be scaled or am I misunderstanding you? Smaller size and weight = suited to efficient smaller motor = less battery capacity needed = more affordable.
 
zoozi said:
What I meant by first lines (and I said "mostly") was meant more as "most manufacturers are on their still relatively new initial electrified vehicle platforms", and they're mostly in the premium range, even if a compact size. Initial electric market needs wealthy premium buyers buying Model S's and BMW i8's to accelerate cost efficiencies and research so we can get to the point of an affordable R250k e-Polo something. Being so much simpler than combustion engines and the battery tech constantly getting cheaper and electricity being cheaper than fuel as a source, surely electric cars will eventually be cheaper in production and fuel than combustion with its 1000 of parts and fluctuating oil prices?
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Agreed, I think we’ll see such from traditional makers but not from Tesla. The Model 3 has actually gone up in price and I guess they see their segment as luxury with comparisons against the 3 series.

I assume Toyota is hedging their bet on hydrogen with their Mirai model, which is electric just not with a battery.
zoozi said:
Well the battery pack can be scaled or am I misunderstanding you? Smaller size and weight = suited to efficient smaller motor = less battery capacity needed = more affordable.
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Sure but it’s still a battery, so you don’t want it getting close to being completely discharged. Also the other factors such as temperature and insulation from water.
The new thing seems to be silicone which could solve the energy density issue.
 
zoozi said:
What I meant by first lines (and I said "mostly") was meant more as "most manufacturers are on their still relatively new initial electrified vehicle platforms", and they're mostly in the premium range, even if a compact size. Initial electric market needs wealthy premium buyers buying Model S's and BMW i8's to accelerate cost efficiencies and research so we can get to the point of an affordable R250k e-Polo something. Being so much simpler than combustion engines and the battery tech constantly getting cheaper and electricity being cheaper than fuel as a source, surely electric cars will eventually be cheaper in production and fuel than combustion with its 1000 of parts and fluctuating oil prices?

Well the battery pack can be scaled or am I misunderstanding you? Smaller size and weight = suited to efficient smaller motor = less battery capacity needed = more affordable.
Click to expand...
We're not near that point though. Also everyone keeps talking about charging, but where's the standard? The only standard is the country plug standard. Petrol comes in a standard we call a nozzle and hole but where's the one for EV? Duplicated infrastructure isn't going to bring anyone nearer to anything.
 
Bard8 said:
Toyota just defending its inability to compete in the electric car market. The more they bury their heads in the sand the more the Chinese will lead in this market.
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the pioneers of mass market hybrid cars with the Prius and the 4 time in a row winners of Le Mans 24hr with a hybrid prototype racer can't compete? or as the OP implies: are not trying to compete because it is premature?

thing is with these long running automotive industry leaders, they don't compete and suddenly a complete unknown like Tesla seems to have the edge ... until the old guard decides to compete and they tend to knock it out of the park with their very first attempt

like the BMW i range, the VW ID range, the Mercedes EQ range, the Porsche Taycan

it's not like Toyota doesn't have the tech or the funds or the ability, it must be a timing thing, by the looks of it they'll target all electric SUV first:
www.toyota.com

2025 Toyota bZ4X | Toyota.com

Discover a world of potential with the all-new 2025 bZ4X. Featuring an all-electric powertrain you can trust, from point A to point bZ.
www.toyota.com www.toyota.com
 
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