Turkey announces incursion of northeast Syria, US-backed Kurds have vowed ‘all-out’ war

[thestaggy]

How long is it the US responsibility before it becomes the Iraqis responsibility? I take it you supported Bush's troop surge and opposed Obama and dems demands to pull out of Iraq?

In any case Obama claimed ISIS was just a minor JV team.

Why the U.S? We're told they're always messing everything up. Should it not be the new leaders of the free world Germany and France?

I opposed the invasion on Iraq as baseless.

Why the US? Who spear headed the invasion of Iraq? Both Germany and France opposed it.

I find this quite incredible. In a thread about a Syria where a Baathist tyrant has failed to keep things "in order", with it collapsing into civil war, somehow people think Saddam would continue to keep a lid on things in Iraq.


Seems you forget Assad was once proclaimed a pragmatic despot. A western educated ophthalmologist with a lovely wife. Nancy Pelosi was so confident in John Kerry's good friend she declared ""the road to Damascus is a road to peace " Five years later Damascus was being shelled in a civil war the UN claimed could produce the largest humanitarian catastrophe of the 21st century.

As to Iraq it seems you've also forgotten the extraordinary lengths the West had to go to to help keep things "in order" in Saddam's Iraq. No fly zones of over northern and southern Iraq for example because Saddam had a penchant for unleashing his military on Iraqi civilians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anfal_genocide#cite_note-9

Anfal campaign - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Crushing Of the Shia uprising in Southern Iraq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigris–Euphrates_river_system

1991 Iraqi uprisings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then there was the draconian sanctions imposed on Iraq to keep Saddam in check that had devastating effect on Iraqi Civilians.

Seems Iraq was more a warzone for most of the time under Saddam's rule than merely an oppressive "orderly" tyranny....

I already acknowledged his harsh measures, especially those against the Kurds.

Fact remains his influence was isolated to his own country. If the Iraqis wanted him gone they would've eventually ousted him. All dictators eventually meet their ends.

Biggest irony; They warned us Hussein was a threat to world peace with his non-existent WMDs. Turns out the biggest threat to the west from Iraq is/was ISIS, which grew in the power vacuum created by the US dismantling Hussein's regime.

Don't conveniently forget that Syria's position has been heavily compromised by an out of control Iraq bordering it.

The track record for regime change by the US and the rest of the west is atrocious. They fvck places up, dust their hands off and move on to the next country to skittle. Consequences of their actions be damned.

 

[Milano]

Russia only cares about its gas lines running through Turkey. If Erdogan is killing Assads forces and asks Russia for help what do you think Putin will do?

Turkey's Syria offensive forces Russia into balancing act – DW – 10/14/2019

Russia has been pushing for the Damascus government to regain full control of Syria and to find a political solution to the ongoing war. But Turkey's intervention may only be a temporary setback for Russian interests.

www.dw.com

Why do you think Erdogan is not attacking Syrian government forces? And I am referring to before the Russians took over US positions.

 

[Unhappy438]

Haha its funny because during Obamas years Alan had a hard on for war, not so much anymore i guess.

 

[FrankCastle]

Why do you think Erdogan is not attacking Syrian government forces? And I am referring to before the Russians took over US positions.

Turkey became winners the moment that the Kurds called on Syrian government protection. The Kurds immediately lost their autonomy in NE Syria and now fall under Syrian government control. If that is not a win then what is? It is exactly what Turkey wanted. In fact it is even superior to their original intentions.

This is a contradiction.
Why is Turkey attacking a force that is seeking protection from its own ally?

 

[Alan]

Putin is a master puppeteer. He plays these games at a level nobody is willing or able to match. Cannot trust him while looking at him.

But Obama assured us Russia is only a weak regional power.

I opposed the invasion on Iraq as baseless.

Why the US? Who spear headed the invasion of Iraq? Both Germany and France opposed it.

That wasn't my question. Did you support Bush's surge to keep troops there to protect Iraqis as you say was the U.S's responsibility or did you support the calls to pull out and abandon the Iraqis.

No I meant on the world stage.

I already acknowledged his harsh measures, especially those against the Kurds.

Fact remains his influence was isolated to his own country. If the Iraqis wanted him gone they would've eventually ousted him. All dictators eventually meet their ends.

Biggest irony; They warned us Hussein was a threat to world peace with his non-existent WMDs. Turns out the biggest threat to the west from Iraq is/was ISIS, which grew in the power vacuum created by the US dismantling Hussein's regime.

Don't conveniently forget that Syria's position has been heavily compromised by an out of control Iraq bordering it.

The track record for regime change by the US and the rest of the west is atrocious. They fvck places up, dust their hands off and move on to the next country to skittle. Consequences of their actions be damned.

Well it was a little more than harsh measures. It was outright ethnic cleansing and genocide.

he Halabja chemical attack (Kurdish: Kêmyabarana Helebce کمیابارانی ھەڵەبجە), also known as the Halabja Massacre or Bloody Friday,[1] was a massacre against the Kurdish people that took place on March 16, 1988, during the closing days of the Iran–Iraq War in the Kurdish city of Halabja in Iraq. The attack was part of the Al-Anfal Campaign in northern Iraq, as well as part of the Iraqi attempt to repel the Iranian Operation Zafar 7. It took place 48 hours after the fall of the town to the Iranian Army. A United Nations (UN) medical investigation concluded that mustard gas was used in the attack, along with unidentified nerve agents.[2]

The attack killed between 3,200 and 5,000 people and injured 7,000 to 10,000 more, most of them civilians.[1][3] Preliminary results from surveys of the affected region showed an increased rate of cancer incidence and birth defects in the years after the attack.[4] The incident, which has been officially defined by Supreme Iraqi Criminal Tribunal as a genocidal massacre against the Kurdish people in Iraq,[5] was the largest chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history.[6]

Halabja massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Neither was Saddam's destabilizing threat limited to his own country. The 8 year war with Iran. The invasion of Kuwait and the launching of Scuds into Israel.

Assad largely compromised himself in supporting the movement of Jihadis into Iraq during the Iraq war. Not everybody fighting for ISIS is a former Baathist. There would still be extremists slaughtering people in Syria regardless of whether Saddam was removed from power or not. In fact he would have no doubt supported extremsists in an effort to undermine his rival much like Assad did to him

Al qaeda was routed in Iraq after the surge. The Iraqis though abjectly failed to take advantage of the opportunity afforded to them.

Which other countries have the fscked up and abandoned?

 

[Milano]

Why is Turkey attacking a force that is seeking protection from its own ally?

Can you be more specific by naming the force and naming the ally?

 

[Milano]

This is a contradiction.

How would that be a contradiction? One of your highlights is a question that you never answered.

 

[FrankCastle]

Can you be more specific by naming the force and naming the ally?

force is the kurds and Syria is the ally, unless there's another reason why Turkey isnt attacking Syrian forces?

 

[Milano]

force is the kurds and Syria is the ally, unless there's another reason why Turkey isnt attacking Syrian forces?

The Syrian government is no fan of the Kurds. Only reason they moved forces out of that area originally is because they needed to focus on rebels closer to Damascus. So why would the Kurds call in the Syrian government for help? They literally had no other choice.

As for Syria and Turkey. Turkey's reason for invading had everything to do with the Kurds in Syria. They were not going after the Syrian government.

So why did the Syrian government send military support to the Kurds? Did they really go there to help the Kurds? Or to take away the autonomy that the Kurds had created for themselves.

Remember in your own article, Russia said it wanted the Syrian government to get back control of the whole of Syria. Well the Kurds had almost a third of Syria under their control. Not anymore.

 

[FrankCastle]

Russia has warned it would prevent Turkey from attacking Syrian troops after the U.S. withdrew from a looming clash between rival factions in the war-torn country.
Alexander Lavrentiev, the Kremlin's special envoy to Syria, downplayed the danger of a clash between the Turkish and Syrian militaries, telling RIA Novosti Tuesday that "the collision, first of all, it is not just that no one is interested, it is simply unacceptable."
"We will not allow this," he said.
The same outlet cited the Russian Defense Ministry as saying that its troops had been deployed to the front lines between the two opposing armed forces engaged in Syria's eight-year civil war. Russia, alongside Iran, has backed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad against a rebel and jihadi uprising supported by Turkey.
A third faction, the mostly Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces were supported by the U.S., but have been left behind by an ongoing withdrawal as Turkey, a member of the NATO Western military alliance, mobilized Syrian opposition fighters in an operation to take on Kurdish separatists. As a result, the Syrian Democratic Forces and the Syrian government have struck a deal under Russia to join forces in the face of their common foe.

Russia 'Will Not Allow' Turkey to Attack Syria As It Sends in Troops

Speaking of a potential fight between Turkey and Syria, the Kremlin's special Syria envoy said "it not just that no one is interested, it is simply unacceptable."

www.newsweek.com

Russia and Turkey allies - my ass

 

[FrankCastle]

The Syrian government is no fan of the Kurds. Only reason they moved forces out of that area originally is because they needed to focus on rebels closer to Damascus. So why would the Kurds call in the Syrian government for help? They literally had no other choice.

As for Syria and Turkey. Turkey's reason for invading had everything to do with the Kurds in Syria. They were not going after the Syrian government.

So why did the Syrian government send military support to the Kurds? Did they really go there to help the Kurds? Or to take away the autonomy that the Kurds had created for themselves.

Remember in your own article, Russia said it wanted the Syrian government to get back control of the whole of Syria. Well the Kurds had almost a third of Syria under their control. Not anymore.

Why is it Turkeys business and why is Nato unhappy.

 

[Milano]

Why is it Turkeys business and why is Nato unhappy.

The Kurds are spread across at least 3 countries in the immediate region (Turkey, Syria, Iraq).

Turkey has the Kurdish terrorist PKK group operating inside Turkey waging a terrorist war against the Turkish government. Turkey is backed up by major world powers in labeling them terrorists - those countries officially identify the Kurdish PKK inside Turkey as a terrorist group.

Turkey does not want autonomous Kurds on their border. They say that they (the Kurdish YGP inside Syria) are sending weapons across the border to the Kurdish PKK terrorist group inside Turkey.

They want a buffer zone there to prevent the Kurds from Syria sending weapons and support to Kurdish terrorists in Turkey.

The Syrian government having taken back control of that region will meet pretty much the same objective the Turkish set out to achieve.

If the Turkish soon sign a ceasefire and withdrawal agreement brokered by the Russians they will have basically achieved their objective of destroying Kurdish autonomy on their border.

 

[thestaggy]

That wasn't my question. Did you support Bush's surge to keep troops there to protect Iraqis as you say was the U.S's responsibility or did you support the calls to pull out and abandon the Iraqis.

No I meant on the world stage.

I supported it as the intended goal was to try and stabilise the situation and to a degree it worked.

Unfortunately sectarianism and extremism were too far gone and the country was doomed. At that point they should've split. Most of their surge was directed at the Sunni Arab dominated regions and Baghdad. Should've cut their losses and left the Shiites for Iran and help establish a Sunni Arab state.

As elaborated on, Hussein's secularism and iron fist held the lot together. Without someone like him in place they would fracture, especially with a predatory Iran in the wings.

Well it was a little more than harsh measures. It was outright ethnic cleansing and genocide.

I wanted to add to my post;

I support limited military action in the event of a humanitarian crisis. No-fly zone over the Kurds to stop Hussein from attacking them? 100%.

But I am pragmatic enough to accept that some devils are best left in place because you know who they are and what they are about. The reality is, with limited exceptions (Kuwait, Israel and Jordan), that part of the world is generally run by the man with the strongest grip and nastiest temper. The western ideas of freedom, equality, democracy and human rights are tough sells.

Neither was Saddam's destabilizing threat limited to his own country. The 8 year war with Iran. The invasion of Kuwait and the launching of Scuds into Israel.

Iran and Iraq worked themselves in to a stalemate. India and Pakistan fought many wars and are constantly poking one another, but both know future war would be bad for both. Iraq War 2.0 was 15-years after the Iraq-Iran War, things change.

Iraq learnt a harsh lesson after they invaded Kuwait.

Regarding those Iraqi scuds, yeah...Operation Opera. I think Israel came out on top.

Hussein likely would've been a lot similar to North Korea; issuing threats and talking big, but he knew his chances of doing anything major were limited because he was isolated and he had his butt repeatedly kicked. Iran didn't like him, the Saudis didn't trust him, the Syrians were rivals and the US didn't like him. He had effectively isolated himself in the region, with rivals and enemies in every direction. He was hemmed in.

Assad largely compromised himself in supporting the movement of Jihadis into Iraq during the Iraq war. Not everybody fighting for ISIS is a former Baathist. There would still be extremists slaughtering people in Syria regardless of whether Saddam was removed from power or not. In fact he would have no doubt supported extremsists in an effort to undermine his rival much like Assad did to him

Its not that ISIS are former Baathists and of course there would still be extremists operating in Syria. However, toppling Hussein and the resulting surge in extremism was basically throwing fuel on the fire and made things infinitely worse. ISIS were using captured Iraqi heavy weapons and vehicles when they moved in to Syria. Does this happen with a strongman still in power? I don't think so.

Al qaeda was routed in Iraq after the surge. The Iraqis though abjectly failed to take advantage of the opportunity afforded to them.

Because they - Iraqis - fractured on sectarian lines, which was part of the collateral following Hussein's ousting. Too busy blowing one another up to fix the country.

Which other countries have the fscked up and abandoned?

We can start with Latin America and south-east Asia. That was more covert, but still, many fine stories to tell regarding regime change and influence.

I'm surprised you are being coy about their track record when it comes to the way they have handled changing governments and some of the after effects of those changes. Pretty much why many folks want them to stop getting involved in places because it rarely turns out for the better of the country concerned or themselves.

 

[Milano]

Russia 'Will Not Allow' Turkey to Attack Syria As It Sends in Troops

Speaking of a potential fight between Turkey and Syria, the Kremlin's special Syria envoy said "it not just that no one is interested, it is simply unacceptable."

www.newsweek.com

Russia and Turkey allies - my ass

Will not allow? Turkey has no intention of doing so. Russia is grandstanding. Putin theatrics at his best. What an absolute joke. There were no Syrian government troops in that third of Syria and there hadn't been in about 5 years. Turkey attacked an autonomous Kurdish region within Syria. The Syrian government hates its own Kurdish population as much as Turkey hates its own Kurds - and as much as both hate all Kurds in general.

Both Syria and Turkey used this as an opportunity to screw the Kurds - and it was all brokered by Putin.

Why do you think Russia (and thus Syria by proxy), Turkey and Iran were at the meeting at the Kremlin three weeks ago to decide the fate of Syria - but no Kurds?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

He gave the greenlight?

I think you're mistaken. He had no choice but to pull out. He never gave Turkey the greenlight. You must be one of the most dishonest people on this forum /facepalm

I know you've got some weird habit of showing everyone how ignorant you are about basic things, but it was literally in the White House's press release:

Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into Northern Syria.

Does this guy sounds like he listens to the US for advice?

Yes, as I mentioned earlier - Trump's poop-tweeting and self-parody letter didn't stop him, remarkably.

 

[Dave]

Not at all. The Kurds are the biggest losers. They had an autonomous region for almost 5 years which they had been seeking for more than a century. Through the desperate agreement made with the government, Syrian government forces now command the Kurds. The Kurds have lost their autonomy.

Maybe not, it's looking like the Russian brokered deal between Assad and the Kurds includes an agreement on an autonomous Kurdish region.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183687416550514688

 

[Sinbad]

 

[Pitbull]

I know you've got some weird habit of showing everyone how ignorant you are about basic things, but it was literally in the White House's press release:





Yes, as I mentioned earlier - Trump's poop-tweeting and self-parody letter didn't stop him, remarkably.

So no green light given? Dishonest as I said

 

[Milano]

Maybe not, it's looking like the Russian brokered deal between Assad and the Kurds includes an agreement on an autonomous Kurdish region.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183687416550514688

Will be interesting to see how that pans out in reality for the Kurds. Assad and the Russians certainly achieved their objectives and in no small part thanks to Turkey. Any agreement going forward will certainly be more favourable to Turkey, Assad and Russia.

 

[BBSA]

Turkey has agreed to a ceasefire in northern Syria to let Kurdish-led forces withdraw, US Vice President Mike Pence has announced.

All military operations will be paused for 120 hours, and the US will help facilitate an "orderly withdrawal" of Kurdish-led troops from what Turkey has termed a "safe zone" on the border.

Turkey launched its assault last week.

It aimed to push Kurdish fighters from the border and create this "safe zone" to resettle Syrian refugees.

Critics fear this could lead to ethnic cleansing of the Kurdish population in the region.

The cross-border offensive came after US President Donald Trump pulled US forces out of the area.

Turkey to suspend Syria offensive 'to allow Kurdish withdrawal'

US Vice-President Mike Pence says the pause in operations will allow Kurdish-led forces to withdraw.

www.bbc.com