U.S. Politics

[CaptainOblivious]

using labels to target people is pretty much all the rage across the spectrum. i mean, have you read this thread?

nothing manifests across the spectrum. you know that as well as I do. but we're not in the realm of genuine debate about this stuff most of the time, we're fvcking trapped in that insane, binary finger-pointing and points-scoring that passes for discussion.

Consistency?

 

[CaptainOblivious]

this is interesting. what do you mean by it? genuine question.

“Looking at his disciples, he said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.’”

It's not what *I* mean by it that matters.

 

[daelm]

Consistency?

easy.

quote one doesn't generalise. it just says that there are things that occur across the spectrum. quote two states that nothing generalises successfully.

the Jesus question now. i'm genuinely curious.

edit: cool, we cross posted.

 

[daelm]

It's not what *I* mean by it that matters.

ok. so what you meant was he was also specifying why they were blessed? cool. i thought you might have been going in the direction that there was something specifically blessed about the state of poverty, like, for example, that it approximated asceticism or something.

edit (sorry): it's a curious claim, though, right? why is the Kingdom of God, the poors reward?

 

[CaptainOblivious]

easy.

quote one doesn't generalise. it just says that there are things that occur across the spectrum. quote two states that nothing generalises successfully.

In that case, you tried to both sides something, and I explained to you that what I was pointing out is confined to one side; therefore your response actually doesn't address the point I was making.

 

[AfricanTech]

Right, and typically men are left to fend for themselves because nobody gives a rats arse about them and the female interest group has taken a name that implies general interest.

But as the stats show, their plight is actually significant.


Yes, but it takes a certain kind of peculiar logic to infer that "all lives matter" is really a statement that professes racism, and this logic does not manifest itself all across the spectrum.

It's because 'all lives matter' is seen as a negation of 'black lives matter' because, by definition 'black lives' are subsumed by 'all lives'.

So what happens is that a message aimed at highlighting something that is experienced particularly keenly by black people is 'hijacked' and diluted because 'all lives' do matter.

 

[CaptainOblivious]

ok. so what you meant was he was also specifying why they were blessed? cool. i thought you might have been going in the direction that there was something specifically blessed about the state of poverty, like, for example, that it approximated asceticism or something.

I am reasonably sure that Greg does not identify as a Christian. So that begs the question why he would think the poor are in fact blessed when their due is the "kingdom of God". I mean, this is all stuff you'd have to be asking him rather than me, as he's the one who thought to invoke the phrase in a meme like it was in some way addressing what I was saying.

 

[daelm]

In that case, you tried to both sides something, and I explained to you that what I was pointing out is confined to one side; therefore your response actually doesn't address the point I was making.

didn't catch that. i definitely didn't "both sides" anything. i'm more nuanced than that. what i meant by the first is that the label-and-demonize thing is done by people of all ideological positions (not all people, people of all positions.)

 

[daelm]

I am reasonably sure that Greg does not identify as a Christian. So that begs the question why he would think the poor are in fact blessed when their due is the "kingdom of God". I mean, this is all stuff you'd have to be asking him rather than me, as he's the one who thought to invoke the phrase in a meme like it was in some way addressing what I was saying.

honestly, i just read more into your post than you put there.

 

[CaptainOblivious]

It's because 'all lives matter' is seen as a negation of 'black lives matter' because, by definition 'black lives' are subsumed by 'all lives'.

Exclusive inclusivity ftw.

So what happens is that a message aimed at highkightingu something that is experienced particularly keenly by black people is 'hijacked' and diluted because 'all lives' do matter.

Yeah, but there's no particular reason why we should listen to a bunch of ethnocentrists trying to eke out special treatment for a particular skin colour. Telling them "all lives matter" is explaining to them what's wrong with their ethnocentrism.

 

[greg0205]

I'm not clear on why the poor are blessed. Perhaps you'd like to clarify, and maybe take a vow of poverty?

Oof!

Okay, I'mma help you with that... See, back in the day there was a guy named Jesus. Some folks say he was the son of god.

Anyway...

They wrote a book about him... Maybe you've heard of it, it's called the Bible.

Now one of the folks who wrote about Jesus was called Matthew, and Matthew wrote about a town-hall Jesus had in Galilee where he shared his teachings... You know, like folks on YouTube, except in person and without a beanie.

Matthew says the town-hall was called the Sermon on the Mount, so it was kinda a town-hall on the mount.

Turns out, the sermon went really, really well and people still quote it today.

In particular they quote the prayer he shared with the folks at the town-hall on the mount - the folks who say Jesus was the son of god call it the "Lord's Prayer".

He also shared what folks call the eight Beatitudes... They go like this:

1 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
3 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
4 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
5 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
6 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
7 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
8 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

It's all right there in the bible book... in Matthew's gosple, chapter 5.

So... Why are the poor blessed?

'Cos Jesus said so.




You're welcome.

 

[daelm]

Exclusive inclusivity ftw.


Yeah, but there's no particular reason why we should listen to a bunch of ethnocentrists trying to eke out special treatment for a particular skin colour. Telling them "all lives matter" is explaining to them what's wrong with their ethnocentrism.

how would you suggest they raise the visibility of an issue that they experienced then, that was premised (by others) on their ethnicity? also, genuine question.

as i indicated earlier, btw, i don't see it as asking for special treatment. if anything, they were asking for normal treatment. basically, the opposite of special treatment. (please can we get the same treatment at traffic stops as a white person tends to get, etc.)

 

[2023]

I believe your interpretation to have been wrong then.

When trump started calling it the "China virus" it had nothing to do with any human rights concerns. trump's track record of being concerned about human rights is exactly zero. His humanitarian concerns were always exactly zero. His only concerns were ever to deflect blame for the effect that the virus was having on his precious economy, appearing 'strong' and to prop China up as a useful enemy, given that they are the only ones with the economic clout to rival that of the US.

trump is and was bitter about the fact that a virus, originating in China, that China was in no way completely transparent about, was harming his political fortunes, and as always, trump's reaction to anything was petty revenge in whatever way possible. Do not fool yourself that this had anything to do with atrocities committed within China's borders.

Was his initial intent to be racist? I don't believe so. I believe trump is naturally racist without even being aware of it, like many racists. Whether deliberate or not, the effect of his deliberate usage of the phrase was that it unequivocally caused an uptick in racist behaviour toward Asians, in very much the same way that his denigration of Muslims and Mexicans have had that the same effect. He emboldens racists. As likely as it was that this fact was reported to him, it's just not something that concerns him in the least. His utter lack of humanity and decency is one of the main reasons that liberals find him so repulsive.

The EO apparently being put into place now is to combat the effect that he had with his repeated unnecessary use of that term.

Maybe for Trump, but in the context of where it started for me begin called "China Virus" it was about Chinese Government accountability. I didn't start hearing it from Trump but the circles I was in before lockdown. And it was clear to be a jab at the Chinese government, not at Asian Americans. ie Reminding China of it's failure.

So Trump, racists or SJW might have highjacked the term for their own desires, or maybe my circles were outside of that loop. I'm not going to die on the hill trying to convince anyone else to my original interpretation.

Personally, I find calling it the [redacted] virus quite humorous as [redacted] is known for heavily censoring criticism of it's government.

 

[CaptainOblivious]

didn't catch that. i definitely didn't "both sides" anything. i'm more nuanced than that. what i meant by the first is that the label-and-demonize thing is done by people of all ideological positions (not all people, people of all positions.)

This is nitpicking.

I never suggested that people of one side use labels. I was describing a particular way that the lables were being employed. When you responded that this happens across the spectrum, it implies very strongly that you missed the point I was making. The significance of what I'm describing is the logic, not the labeling, and if you think it happens from people of all positions, then I am confident that you are mistaken.

 

[daelm]

This is nitpicking.

I never suggested that people of one side use labels. I was describing a particular way that the lables were being employed. When you responded that this happens across the spectrum, it implies very strongly that you missed the point I was making. The significance of what I'm describing is the logic, not the labeling, and if you think it happens from people of all positions, then I am confident that you are mistaken.

i probably did, to be honest. it wasn't intentional.

 

[Moosedrool]

China Virus as used by DT does not conform to your and 2021's interpretation.

Others have already explained why more eloquently than me.

If you don't see it, you don't.

It is what it is.

My 2021 interpretation.

His ego is a shitty character trait but he could've at least explained his critique so that people don't misinterpret it I guess. SJW types started complaining that he shouldn't say china so much in relation to sars Cov2. This is after CNN MSNBC and whatever outlet repeated Chinese Wuhan Coronavirus a million times.

You can't be serious. It's exactly like saying the South African or UK strain. What is happening is you want there to be some kind of racism so you use the opportunity to misinterpret things like that. It's the same as I explained before about the digging into that conspiracy stuff. It has to be more for you.

 

[STS]

Except Jesus was actually telling people how privileged the poor are.

So... ya...

Maybe you'd like to explain how ethnocentrism became an acceptable social platform for me?

You are going to deep into this. I said point, I didn't validate or defend the point, I said he was trying to make a point, and that point was taken away by people trying to make another point by trivializing his point

You can decide what is acceptable and isn't acceptable for yourself, it just seemed like you weren't getting what he was saying because of the many questions you asked

 

[CaptainOblivious]

how would you suggest they raise the visibility of an issue that they experienced then, that was premised (by others) on their ethnicity? also, genuine question.

as i indicated earlier, btw, i don't see it as asking for special treatment. if anything, they were asking for normal treatment. basically, the opposite of special treatment.

I would rather suggest that expecting racial/gender/whatever parity in statistical outcomes is a flawed way of framing any issue. Expecting that social intervention be taken to accomplish that parity is exactly asking for special treatment rather than normal treatment.

 

[AfricanTech]

My 2021 interpretation.

His ego is a shitty character trait but he could've at least explained his critique so that people don't misinterpret it I guess. SJW types started complaining that he shouldn't say china so much in relation to sars Cov2. This is after CNN MSNBC and whatever outlet repeated Chinese Wuhan Coronavirus a million times.

You can't be serious. It's exactly like saying the South African or UK strain. What is happening is you want there to be some kind of racism so u use the opportunity to misinterpret things like that. It's the same as I explained before about the digging into that conspiracy stuff. It has to be more for you.

Not your 2021 interpretation - I was referring to the forum member who calls himself 2021.

As to the rest of your reply, no worries Moose - I have nothing invested in wanting to change your mind.

Cheers.

 

[CaptainOblivious]

Oof!

Okay, I'mma help you with that... See, back in the day there was a guy named Jesus. Some folks say he was the son of god.

Anyway...

They wrote a book about him... Maybe you've heard of it, it's called the Bible.

Now one of the folks who wrote about Jesus was called Matthew, and Matthew wrote about a town-hall Jesus had in Galilee where he shared his teachings... You know, like folks on YouTube, except in person and without a beanie.

Matthew says the town-hall was called the Sermon on the Mount, so it was kinda a town-hall on the mount.

Turns out, the sermon went really, really well and people still quote it today.

In particular they quote the prayer he shared with the folks at the town-hall on the mount - the folks who say Jesus was the son of god call it the "Lord's Prayer".

He also shared what folks call the eight Beatitudes... They go like this:

1 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
3 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
4 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
5 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
6 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
7 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
8 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

It's all right there in the bible book... in Matthew's gosple, chapter 5.

So... Why are the poor blessed?

'Cos Jesus said so.




You're welcome.

Yeah, but you don't believe Jesus was right, do you?

So actually the tit correcting Jesus would be.... making a good point?