Unita shakes foundations of MPLA, slashing ruling party’s majority by 27% in Angola

[Cosmik Debris]

They were always ANC supporters, not like they saw the light in 94. Gqozo, Mangope, Ramodike, Ramushwana and The Prince from the Great House of Phindangene never became ANC politicians.

Stop making excuses and mentioning the few to support your view. They were quite happy to be part of the apartheid system and then the ANC absorbed them and the Nats.

 

[TheChamp]

Were UNITA oppressed by the South Africans?

Good question.

Unita was not oppressed by South Africa (SADF), certainly not in the time I was there.
We worked very well with them and there was mutual respect between the Unita troops and the SADF members who worked with them, training them and fighting with them.

Having said that, that was on the ground, I cannot speak for the intentions of the politicians since we were all used by them.

Here you go Cosmik Debris, from someone with first hand experience.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

So I'm right or...? The way I see 'em they were basically the ANC's Security Branch (learnt about this from The President's Keepers by Jacques Pauw).

Correct. The equivalent of Vlakplaas' CCB operators but operating against their own organisation's people. And then someone here wants to tell me about black people being oppressed by whites? They didn't need the whites with the far worse Mbokodo as their actual oppressors.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

The "new guy" has been president for 5 years already.

@TheChamp is just showing his ignorance of anything outside SA while trying to show support for former "liberation" movements as governments. I was working in Angola when Lourenço took over and did his clean out.

It was most pleasing to see the "Angolan Princess" Isobel Dos Santos getting charged with fraud.

 

[sefeddt]

Unita was not oppressed by South Africa (SADF), certainly not in the time I was there.
We worked very well with them and there was mutual respect between the Unita troops and the SADF members who worked with them, training them and fighting with them.

Having said that, that was on the ground, I cannot speak for the intentions of the politicians since we were all used by them.

Unita was also dodgy, the SADF were meant to be reinforcement to Unita offences against FAPLA but often the SADF, after promises, found themselves first on the scene with Unita rocking up after.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Here you go Cosmik Debris, from someone with first hand experience.

Same experience I and most white males now over the age of 50 had.

 

[Kola-CT]

Unita was also dodgy, the SADF were meant to be reinforcement to Unita offences but often the SADF, after promises, found themselves first on the scene with Unita rocking up after.

There were so many total clusterfukks I can probably write a book on just the short time I was with them.

I volunteered for the unit I was in, the Unita troops not so much, and many were too young to be asked to go and fight a war.

But we are going off topic now, this thread is about elections, I think.

Point I wanted to make is really just that they were not oppressed by us during my time there in answer to the question about that.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Unita was also dodgy, the SADF were meant to be reinforcement to Unita offences against FAPLA but often the SADF, after promises, found themselves first on the scene with Unita rocking up after.

Yes. Colonel Jan Breytenbach was very critical of their duplicity. He had enormous respect for PLAN (Namibia SWAPO).

 

[RonSwanson]

Mbeki had a "quiet diplomacy" policy toward Mugabe. It actually meant co-operation, friendship and support.

...and suppression of the truth, like the Khampepe report authored by Justice Sisi Khampepe and Justice Dikgang Moseneke and paid for by the South African taxpayer, which Mbeki tried to keep secret for over 12 years, ostensibly to prevent US forces striking Mugabe down.

Analysis: The Khampepe Report, a crushing blow to SA’s diplomatic credibility

For more than 12 years, the South African government fought to keep the contents of the Khampepe Report under wraps. Finally, they failed, and the details of a damning cover-up were revealed: Zimbabwe’s 2002 elections were rigged, and South Africa knew all about it. Zimbabwe has been paying the...

www.dailymaverick.co.za

 

[Howdy]

Exactly. The war against UNITA was won for Angola's MPLA by South African mercenaries who were former SADF and fighting for the Angolan government as part of former Captain Eeben Barlow of 32 Battalion's Private military Company Executive Outcomes. Former SADF Colonel Roelf van Heerden of Executive Outcomes was commissioned into the Angolan Army so as to have authority over the Angolan troops.

I worked with a former member of the Angolan Army that serveed under the South Africans to defeat UNITA at Soyo. He had the greatest respect for me when he found out i was former SADF and embarrasingly took to saluting me at our first contact every morning at work to the bemusement of our US and British colleagues. The veterans understood the mutual respect.

MK never fought against anyone but themselves in their camps and the Angolans were actually quite disgusted by them.

None of this will be found in SA history books

Matches and tyres somehow did not work up there, only down south.

 

[RonSwanson]

Mbokodo were the people described in this excerpt of Paul Trewhela's book on the camps in Angola:

Correct. Also from the TRC reports and the Skweyiya Commission report, the latter whose terms of reference were not broad enough and gave rise to the Motsuenyane Commission. A small excerpt (backround) from the full list of tortures and killings carried out by the ANC, PAC, APLA and AZANLA:

Background to Human Rights Violations by the ANC in exile


103. Before the establishment of a security apparatus by the ANC, problems of discipline or security were handled by the MK command structures, headed from 1965 by Commander Joe Modise.


104. Between 1979 and 1989, the ANC was responsible for committing various human rights abuses upon its members in exile. Many of these abuses were committed by the ANC's security department (established in the mid-1970s) � known by the acronym NAT (for National Security) or Mbokodo/Mbokotho ('crushing boulder'). The detention camp in Angola known as Quatro (Number Four), officially called the Morris Seabelo Rehabilitation Centre or Camp 32, was set up in 1979 as a 'rehabilitation centre' and was one of the places where significant abuses took place. Violations also took place at the ANC's headquarters in Lusaka, Zambia as well as in Botswana and elsewhere in Angola.


105. The Commission heard that a 'spy scare' in the ANC in 1981 and the poisoning of MK members led to an atmosphere of paranoia about infiltration by agents of the South African government. It was in this context that a number of ANC members were detained and tortured. Some died as a result of assaults and a few were executed. In its Operational Report which it submitted to the Commission, NAT claims credit for uncovering a spy network in 1981 in an operation known as Operation Shishita.


106. Barely two years after the 'spy scare', a rebellion amongst soldiers in MK camps in Angola resulted in further violations. Frustrations among MK members in the Angolan camps led to the Mkatashinga mutiny of 1984. Mutineers at Viana camp were persuaded to end the mutiny by Chris Hani. The leaders were detained; thirty-two were held in Luanda State Security Prison where two died between February and July 1984.


107. Three months after the Viana mutiny, there was a further mutiny at Pango camp. The Pango camp mutiny was forcibly crushed by 'loyalist' MK troops with the assistance of Angolan troops. There were casualties on both sides. The mutineers were captured. Some were allegedly tortured, seven were executed and the rest were transferred to Quatro. ANC NEC member Ms Gertrude Shope intervened and prevented further executions.


108. Many of those detained in 1984 were held for a number of years without trial. The Commission received statements from detainees who were subjected to assault and torture between 1986 and 1989.


109. The events created an awareness of levels of dissatisfaction among MK members, as well as of abuses that were occurring. An internal commission of enquiry into the mutiny made certain recommendations about the treatment of prisoners and the role of the security department. Certain measures were taken to establish legal structures and procedures for dealing with dissidents, including a code of conduct adopted in 1985 and the establishment of the post of 'Officer of Justice'.


110. In 1988, when the ANC was obliged to leave Angola in terms of the New York Accords, the camps were closed and prisoners transferred to ANC camps in Tanzania or prisons in Uganda. In August 1991, the last of the mutineers was released from detention in Uganda and returned to South Africa. The ANC stated at this point that it no longer held any prisoners. However, Amnesty International was told of detainees held in Tanzania, some released only during 1992.


111. In September 1991, the Skweyiya Commission of Enquiry, reporting to the ANC President, was set up to investigate allegations made by a group of thirty-two concerning poor conditions, maltreatment and the loss or destruction of property in the ANC detention camps.


112. The Skweyiya Commission heard evidence from seventeen former ANC detainees, including eleven from the 'group of 32' and six ANC officials. It did not have statutory powers and was unable to subpoena witnesses or offer witness protection and relied on witnesses coming forward voluntarily. An independent advocate was appointed to conduct investigations and lead evidence before the commission.


113. The Skweyiya Commission found that detainees were held for periods of from three to seven years without trial and that cells were at times overcrowded, hot and lacking ventilation. Certain detainees were held in solitary confinement for extended periods. Hygiene and medical care were inadequate. The detainees' diet was inadequate and food deprivation was used as a means of punishment.


114. The Skweyiya Commission found that maltreatment at Quatro detention centre in Angola was persistent and brutal, and included discipline and denigration, hard labour, assault and punishment. Before internment at Quatro, detainees were tortured to extract confessions. The Skweyiya Commission found that conditions at other places of detention in Angola, Tanzania, Zambia and Uganda were also unacceptable. It found that the circumstances surrounding the execution of some of the mutineers were unclear.


115. The Skweyiya Commission report was published by the Centre for Development Studies at the University of the Western Cape in August 1992. A confidential list of members of the ANC security department alleged to be responsible for ill-treatment of detainees was submitted to ANC president Mr Nelson Mandela.


116. On 2 December 1992, Amnesty International published a report of its own research into human rights violations by the ANC in exile. It found that the victims of extensive human rights abuses were in most cases members of MK. The report detailed the abuse, including the death of Mr Thami Zulu in 1989. It also reported on the killing of two former ANC detainees in South Africa: Mr Sipho Phungulwa [JB00420/01ERKWA] in Transkei in June 1990, and Mr Bongani Ntshangase in Natal on 21 May 1992.


117. The Amnesty International report criticised the limited terms of reference of the Skweyiya Commission, saying that they precluded incidents of killing and the disappearance of prisoners. The Skweyiya report did not assign individual responsibility for abuses within the ANC, nor did it analyse the chains of command within the security department and MK or between those bodies and the ANC leadership, in order to establish political responsibility for what happened in the camps. The report stated further that the Skweyiya Commission did not cover conditions or abuses in camps other than Quatro in any detail.


118. In 1993, the independent Motsuenyane Commission of Enquiry was appointed by ANC president Mr Nelson Mandela. Its terms of reference were broader than those of the Skweyiya Commission. The Motsuenyane Commission held public hearings and heard evidence from fifty witnesses in Johannesburg, including that of eleven alleged perpetrators who gave oral testimony and had the opportunity to cross-examine witnesses. The hearings were public and over 2 500 pages of testimony were received. The commissioners also made an inspection of two former ANC settlements and a United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) refugee camp in Tanzania. The Motsuenyane Commission's comprehensive report on human rights abuses in the ANC camps was published in August 1993.


119. The report of the Motsuenyane Commission found that there was a lack of accountability for excesses both at Quatro camp and during the investigation of alleged enemy agents. It attributed this to the lack of clear lines of demarcation between MK and Mbokotho (Mbokodo), the security department.


120. It found further that the leadership did not deal adequately with the concerns and complaints of the mutineers. Arbitrary detention without trial became routine. Quatro personnel were not adequately trained and supervised and did not have the maturity or experience to deal with suspected enemy agents. There was a breakdown in communication between Mbokotho and the Officer of Justice which resulted in the continued improper detention of persons without trial. The Officer of Justice was not effective in administering the code of conduct to protect the human rights of detainees.


121. The Motsuenyane Commission concluded that, with the completion of its report, the ANC's task was only half done:


Indeed, the victims of the abuses catalogued here have now been heard but, in the view of the Commission, they have not yet received the full measure of justice due them.


122. In response to the findings of the Motsuenyane Commission, the ANC NEC told the Commission that it "deeply regrets the excesses" that took place:


Further, we acknowledge that the real threat we faced and the difficult conditions under which we had to operate led to a drift in accountability and control away from established norms, resulting in situations in which some individuals within the NAT began to behave as a law unto themselves.


123. The reports of these and other commissions are now part of the public record, having been submitted to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (as recommended by the Skweyiya Commission).

 

[Howdy]

Here you go Cosmik Debris, from someone with first hand experience.

There are many of us with first hand experience, but we respect your view on the facts you learnt from an uncle who served under Oom Carl.

 

[RonSwanson]

Matches and tyres somehow did not work up there, only down south.

Deaths (only those related to political violence and to necklace/burnings, not counting the human rights violations in ANC detention camps):

Year	Total political violence deaths	Necklace/burning
1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 TOTAL	175 (164) 922 (636) 1 352 (834) 706 (361) 1 149 (401) 1 403 (474) 5 707 (2 870)	3 (3) 67 (28) 306 (84) 19 (35) 10 (20) (21) +/- 700 (191)

 

[PrimeSteak]

like the Khampepe report authored by Justice Sisi Khampepe and Justice Dikgang Moseneke

Off topic:

Apparently, they were both nominated for the panel to investigate Rama and Phala Phala.

 

[PrimeSteak]

...and suppression of the truth, like the Khampepe report authored by Justice Sisi Khampepe and Justice Dikgang Moseneke and paid for by the South African taxpayer, which Mbeki tried to keep secret for over 12 years, ostensibly to prevent US forces striking Mugabe down.

Analysis: The Khampepe Report, a crushing blow to SA’s diplomatic credibility

For more than 12 years, the South African government fought to keep the contents of the Khampepe Report under wraps. Finally, they failed, and the details of a damning cover-up were revealed: Zimbabwe’s 2002 elections were rigged, and South Africa knew all about it. Zimbabwe has been paying the...

www.dailymaverick.co.za

Finally, they failed, and the details of a damning cover-up were revealed: Zimbabwe’s 2002 elections were rigged, and South Africa knew all about it.​

Nice...

 

[wingnut771]

Correct. Also from the TRC reports and the Skweyiya Commission report, the latter whose terms of reference were not broad enough and gave rise to the Motsuenyane Commission. A small excerpt (backround) from the full list of tortures and killings carried out by the ANC, PAC, APLA and AZANLA:

Someone should make a movie out of this. Come on Netflix, increase your local content.

 

[PrimeSteak]

Someone should make a movie out of this. Come on Netflix, increase your local content.

Imagine... A documentary in the style of Bad Sport or Don't **** With Cats...

 

[wingnut771]

Imagine... A documentary in the style of Bad Sport or Don't **** With Cats...

Have not watched them but will have a look.

I prefer a movie than a documentary as I feel movies have a larger audience than documentaries. Also, people these days have short attention spans so would rather watch a movie than a docu series imho, although there might be too much info to fit into a single movie.

I'm easy, either way is good.

 

[PrimeSteak]

Have not watched them but will have a look.

I prefer a movie than a documentary as I feel movies have a larger audience than documentaries. Also, people these days have short attention spans so would rather watch a movie than a docu series imho, although there might be too much info to fit into a single movie.

I'm easy, either way is good.

Funnily enough, I'm the other way round. Rather doccies than movies.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

...and suppression of the truth, like the Khampepe report authored by Justice Sisi Khampepe and Justice Dikgang Moseneke and paid for by the South African taxpayer, which Mbeki tried to keep secret for over 12 years, ostensibly to prevent US forces striking Mugabe down.

Analysis: The Khampepe Report, a crushing blow to SA’s diplomatic credibility

For more than 12 years, the South African government fought to keep the contents of the Khampepe Report under wraps. Finally, they failed, and the details of a damning cover-up were revealed: Zimbabwe’s 2002 elections were rigged, and South Africa knew all about it. Zimbabwe has been paying the...

www.dailymaverick.co.za

South Africa's international reputation is a wreck. Now made even worse by sending Thandi Modise to Russia.