#UnrestSA: Retrieved goods must be destroyed for the sake of the economy, says Ntshavheni

rambo919

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Also if we keep destroying recovered goods.... in the future we are going to start running out of goods all together.

These riots are going to keep happening, people are going to keep needing replacements.... and at some point insurance won't be able to pay out anymore.

"It's economics stupid" works on the assumptions of a steady disposable supply an a steady disposable income..... both of which is going to disappear soon enough.

The whole SA economy is changing in front of our eyes, it's time to stop living in the past where we could waste everything by just throwing usable assets or commodities away.
 

Milano

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Not really, seen one ANC minister, seen them all.

If the fools don't follow the collective are they even central command drones anymore? ie. if any one of then does any good are they even still an ANC minister?
A fair, logical argument as long as comrades continue to insist that individuals do not exist in a collective. They are clearly only a collective when it comes to critical accountability but individually they are extremely open to rewards and applause :ROFL:
 

ToxicBunny

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There are multiple issues at play here, and as much as we may not agree with Ntshavheni's uttering on this, its very likely what will happen purely due to the logistics of the whole thing.

Firstly there is the issue of who "owns" the goods after the insurance claims have been settled. Especially since SASRIA have delegated that normal insurers can process SASRIA claims up to R50k (if memory serves me correctly)
Then there is the issue of actually selling the goods in a reasonable orderly fashion at a value that doesn't totally undermine the retail sector. As much as people are saying that the middle/upper class would buy new appliances anyway that would not be borne out in reality. If someone could legitimately get a R15k fridge or R40k TV for 50% off, that works fine and looks good but doesn't have a warranty, even the upper and middle class would potentially be customers and that makes a significant dent in the retail market.

Then of course there are going to be the on running legal battles in relation to the products seized. If I bought a fridge 6 months ago, I don't necessarily keep the slip or the boxes for it so I would have almost zero immediate ability to prove ownership. Yes I could get my bank statements, or get the store to confirm legal ownership but that is not something the police are going to give 2 shytes about when they are rounding up goods at that point. So as those "processes" are playing out the police or insurance can't necessarily sell the goods to a 3rd party.
 

Tman543

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Thought it would get auctioned off for the insurance companies. Makes sense.
Probably depends, destroy the expensive stuff that is cheap in resources, or maybe send it back to the manufacturers.
Donate the food to affected communities disrupted by the riots.
This would be the best solution. You get tons of damaged goods/vehicle auctions but who is going to bare the cost (burden) of administrating the auction logistics. (Also what stops the cadres from giving it away for R1)

In the end its a real tragedy as giving it away to NGO/NPOs will also be mishandled somehow. A soup kitchen will probably sit with 10 55'' TVs.
 

LCBXX

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Surely there are better options than destroying the looted property?

That said, if it's not destroyed, it'll end up in the homes of the police or be sold off by the police, just like what happens with confiscated firearms/drugs/alcohol
 

Mystic Twilight

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The only way the ministers argument for destruction makes sense is if the goods can't be identified to be rightfully returned, like clothing and cooking utensils, everything else that has a serial number should be returned if the owners were not reimbursed by insurance. Equating recovered stolen goods to counterfeit goods needs twisted logic, which the minister seems to be alluding to as being reasonable and acceptable is because of the tax government can gain from new goods being sold, which implies the only reason government wants goods destroyed is due to the lost tax from the recovered stolen goods. Recovered goods can always be sold at a loss to recover and mitigate against the total loss.

Broken window fallacy... The commies win again. Just give everyone jobs digging a hole and other people the job of filling it back up again.

I can haz Economy, right!?

Ironically the whole idea about hiring one person to dig a hole and then another to fill a hole for economic prosperity was thought up during the great depression by john keynes , the father of modern [capitalistic] economics.
 
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rambo919

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which the minister seems to be alluding to as being reasonable and acceptable is because of the tax government can gain from new goods being sold, which implies the only reason government wants goods destroyed is due to the lost tax from the recovered stolen goods.
Good point.

Ironically the whole idea about hiring one person to dig a hole and then another to fill a hole for economic prosperity was thought up during the great depression by john keynes , the father of modern [capitalistic] economics.
Odd how people equate modern capitalism with capitalism as a whole even though keynes has been proven to have been incorrect in many ways.... everyone exploiting his system is personally getting too rich to want to throw it out for something superior even though it cannot be maintained forever.
 

Milano

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This would actually rate as the wisest ANC action in living memory. The only three issues being that the optics are less than good, that successful implementation is largely impossible due to ANC'ised enforcement, and that the actions will have costly legal blowback. Otherwise I commend the ANC for even giving the matter consideration.
 

noxibox

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Ironically the whole idea about hiring one person to dig a hole and then another to fill a hole for economic prosperity was thought up during the great depression by john keynes , the father of modern [capitalistic] economics.
It's not even ironic. Such pointless cycling only makes sense in some sort of capitalist system.

As much as people are saying that the middle/upper class would buy new appliances anyway that would not be borne out in reality. If someone could legitimately get a R15k fridge or R40k TV for 50% off, that works fine and looks good but doesn't have a warranty, even the upper and middle class would potentially be customers and that makes a significant dent in the retail market.
That assumes they aren't buying solely because the goods are cheap.
 

rietrot

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This would actually rate as the wisest ANC action in living memory. The only three issues being that the optics are less than good, that successful implementation is largely impossible due to ANC'ised enforcement, and that the actions will have costly legal blowback. Otherwise I commend the ANC for even giving the matter consideration.

Literally the worst thing politicians can do is involve themselves in complex matters that is not their job,(like this) whilst neglecting their actual job
 

Milano

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It's not even ironic. Such pointless cycling only makes sense in some sort of capitalist system.
Yes it definitely only makes sense within a successful economic system. All the more remarkable that the comrades in charge embraced it today (tomorrow is another story naturally).
 

Mystic Twilight

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It's not even ironic. Such pointless cycling only makes sense in some sort of capitalist system.

It's ironic because I was replying to,

Broken window fallacy... The commies win again. Just give everyone jobs digging a hole and other people the job of filling it back up again.

I can haz Economy, right!?

who is seemingly blaming communistic economic practices for driving the decision the minister is opting for, whereas the line being referenced to support the view on communism originally came from an arguably capitalist economist.
 

Milano

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Literally the worst thing politicians can do is involve themselves in complex matters that is not their job,(like this) whilst neglecting their actual job
It is the role of state to retrieve stolen property. It is also the role of the state to take reasonable action to protect treasury revenue sources. Yes while government is seldom seen doing its job, it still has an actual job to do.
 

Nerfherder

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Donate appliances to places in need? Childrens homes, places of safety? Not like they get any assistance from the shyt sucking government anyway. nKUNTla should be stripped bare and everything donated by those affected by the riots.
Irony is that the rioters might be the most affected...


Its going to be hard to tell who all the looted stuff belongs to.

Like some stuff might still have the tags but most is going to be non-descript.

What they should do is let the looters keep the stuff but each person should have to pay a fine equivalent to the value of the goods + damages. If you can't pay the fine you go to jail.
The fine goes to a fund to support the businesses affected.
 

rietrot

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(1)It is the role of state to retrieve stolen property.(2) It is also the role of the state to take reasonable action to protect treasury revenue sources.(3) Yes while government is seldom seen doing its job, it still has an actual job to do.

(1)Yes. It's the role of the police. We are talking about when that is done. Not the small business minister job.
(2)vague nonsense.
(3) no, you are seeing government overreach, by some useless cadre, outside of his department.
 

Hemi300c

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I , firstly don't believe that it'll all get destroyed as a fair amount will be expropriated for the 2nd time.

Secondly, only after Sasria has settled the claims does the goods belong to them.

Thirdly this is all evidence but obviously the primary school teachers think differently.
 

ToxicBunny

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It's not even ironic. Such pointless cycling only makes sense in some sort of capitalist system.


That assumes they aren't buying solely because the goods are cheap.

The assumption (at least from me) would be that they're buying them precisely because they're cheap... but that brings up a more long tailed impact to the retail market. I may not necessarily want to buy a nice new fridge at this point, but a cheap one pops up in the salvage sales and I do so... I'm then out of the retail chain for a new fridge for a good long while when in the normal flow of things I may have bought a new fridge in a year or twos time.

(just using the fridge as an example mostly as the logic applies to any expensive appliance really)
 
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