US and NATO escalation of conflict with Russia is leading to war

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Fulcrum29

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Pentagon denies Russia's claim that it's "highly likely" US used surveillance drones to help Ukrainian navy​

From CNN’s Nathan Hodge and Vasco Cotovio in Moscow and Oren Lieberman at the Pentagon

The Pentagon has denied a claim from the Russian Ministry of Defence saying it is "highly likely" that the United States used some of its surveillance drones flying over the Black Sea to help the Ukrainian Navy attack its vessels.

“On the evening of February 25, during the evacuation of 82 Ukrainian servicemen who voluntarily laid down their arms from Zmeiny [Zmiiny] Island, 16 boats of the Ukrainian Navy, using the 'swarm tactics,' tried to attack the ships of the Black Sea Fleet,” Russian defense ministry spokesperson Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said in a statement on Saturday. “During the attack by Ukrainian boats over the provocation area, US strategic unmanned aerial vehicles RQ-4 'Global Hawk' and MQ-9A 'Reaper' were overhead.”

“It is highly likely that it was American UAVs that directed Ukrainian boats at the ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet,” Konashenkov said.

Pentagon press secretary John Kirby denied the claims:

“Russian claims that the United States was involved in any way with Ukrainian naval operations near the Zmiiny Island are false. We did not provide ISR or any other support. Chalk this up to just one more lie by the Russian Ministry of Defense,” he told CNN.
 

Vorastra

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Ukraine has a land border with 4 NATO countries, so Putin invading Ukraine brings Russia closer to those 4 borders.

Hence the excuse that he doesn't want a NATO neighbour doesn't fly.

Since he stated he believes Ukraine is implicitly Russian and is now invading it, it certainly suggest he wishes Ukraine to be part of Russia.

What error in geography have I made?

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What does "buffer state under Russian control" mean?
 

The Trutherizer

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Who the F needs drones to coordinate ships anyway? Some pretty good ship monitoring is done using freely available satellite data all the time. I've seen it, for example in tracking illegal fishing vessels.

Are the Russians using drones to coordinate ships? Do they even space?
 

IndigoIdentity

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No, there is a difference between not wanting to be in a war and acting with callous indifference to the safety of civilians when you are a soldier driving an armored vehicle. They might both be victims but soldiers in a natural position of power have a duty to treat civilians with respect even if they don't want to be in a war...

Hang him from the yard arm is a figure of speech, I don't mean I want the guy executed, I mean the guy should be made to pay for an act that put a civilian in danger for no reason.

All that assumes that what he did was intentional, after seeing another angle am not sure that's true...
I agree with your first part.

Part in bold I did not actually understand until now, I took it literally like damn man that's a bit rough considering the circumstances, the ones I mentioned or even if it was an honest mistake? At least that is what I was thinking.

And yeah I noticed you had jumped the gun a bit on that one initially, that thing was everything from Russian, to Ukrainian to saboteur to civilian depending on what you read. It has many lives it seems.

Wanted to ask though, in the circumstances I had mentioned, any idea on what the penalty would be for the driver / crew if they had ditched the machine and proceeded off on foot?
 

IndigoIdentity

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I have a feeling russia is going to move money via crypto networks
Personally, given the decentralized nature of Bitcoin and given how they enjoy centralizing things, I feel like they don't need Bitcoin when they have China as a friend?

 

Sneeky

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Bucket loads of shoulder fired AA and AT weapons required, I see Germany, despite being swift iffy, offered.
Nato should be flooding Ukraine with these.

If Russia can argue they need a buffer state and invade a sovereign country to wage war and secure that against Nato, can they, Nato, not do the same?
Nato airpower, along the same pretenses of protecting themselves against Russia, with movements of troops or equipment into the area?
It is an escalation, but a defense in the same breath.
 

Sneeky

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The Netherlands also made a small, but decent, donation.
I'm sure the folks on the ground are most appreciative for that.
Every house or city block needs that capability supplied by the allies.
It will make them think twice about just rolling through.
The freedom the helicopters and armor is moving with is palpably not right.
 

Mirai

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Bucket loads of shoulder fired AA and AT weapons required, I see Germany, despite being swift iffy, offered.
Nato should be flooding Ukraine with these.

If Russia can argue they need a buffer state and invade a sovereign country to wage war and secure that against Nato, can they, Nato, not do the same?
Nato airpower, along the same pretenses of protecting themselves against Russia, with movements of troops or equipment into the area?
It is an escalation, but a defense in the same breath.

Russia gets given a lot of leeway. Like a petulant child. NATO and allies are the responsible and mature parties here.
 

IndigoIdentity

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Russia positioned it's forces for months before the invasion, precisely, and then basically sent everything in and went straight for Kiev. It's pretty clear shock and awe, as well as a rapid victory, was the plan.
Don't know if they have a plan B, but it will not be cheap.
Agree, likely no plan B and will not be cheap given the resistance of the population.

My opinion? I am not so much sure that they will put up a continued resistance in the way that we saw in Afghanistan.

Will they simply put their hands down? No... But many of them will not want a war with the Russian people, the same way that Russian people do not want a war with them.

This is a military action, they likely know that too. It's why there is such a hard push in the media to promote the togetherness of the people for the resistance effort.

The people of Ukraine have always been a punching bag, they will likely just want this to end sooner rather than later. A new ruler, a new day. It is the Ukrainian way of life.
At a time when the world has instituted crippling sanctions against Russia for its actions.
Many seem to want to dismiss those sanctions as trivial, but they are extreme. Hundreds of billions of Dollars worth of funds are not just wiped away without somebody feeling it. Much has been said about some war chest they have, but they also need to be able to use it for it to mean anything.
Yup, I see this the same way.

Russia will see an immense internal strife relating to the sanctions and that they are not trivial.

I firmly believe that this was the entire plan for NATO, kick up strife, disregard the concerns, force action then sanction the living crap out of them so as to create discontent.

They won't send in forces to support Ukraine as they know it means facing a potential war with a nuclear capable enemy.

If they can cripple the enemies ability to govern beyond any viable capability, perhaps they can force a regime change as we have seen so many times in the past. Would not be surprised if this is how it ends for Russia, eventually.

This said, Russia does have long-term experience when it comes to dealing with sanctions which have been placed on them, I feel like they have somewhat of an ability to maneuver within this. Ultimately just enough to slow down the process but yeah as above.
At the very least we can be sure the wealthy in Russia are currently extremely uncomfortable.
The rich will hurt like hell and this will have a huge effect on Putins popularity. This said, he was already due to step down in 2024 so perhaps Putin v2 will emerge to take his place.

All people in Russia will feel this, for sure. It's not just the rich, it will bring massive difficulties for the population overall.
As an example: Russia has been trying to get more warm water ports for ages. Now their merchant vessels are not even allowed to navigate some key waterways in Europe. Let alone trade via European ports.
What are they gonna do? Sell apartments in London, NY and Florida? Those assets have been frozen.
Much of their high tech equipment also relies on parts from everywhere as is the case for everybody. So what they have now, apart from aged designs, is likely what they will have in the future.
I don't dis-agree at all.

This said, China will fill a large gap but likely not large enough, some stuff will just be impossible to get, period.
Moscow will face serious problems abroad and domestically. People, entire countries, are not as self-sufficient as they were circa WW2. Russians will by and large hate this development as much as the rest of the world does. Probably more. Russia is not the Soviet Union, with a large population of serfs providing for everything the city people need, anymore. Regardless of what the Kremlin does, information will flow in from the rest of the world too. Internal division and opposition will be substantial.
Agree that Russians will in large hate this development as much as the rest of the world does. I also feel like it might work both ways too, we might see that a lot of the younger generation and whilst being exposed to the damn propaganda machine are going to end up hating the West for what has happened to their lives.

But I don't think that things will ever get to a point where this is going to make any reasonable shift within the eventual downfall of Russia its self. The war is on now, they won't stop with sanctions.
And the power brokers, the wealthy in Russia will have the final say. Putin is only still in charge because he has pandered to them. Has maintained a status quo where they can thrive.
Putin v2, the Return of Putin :ROFL:
The way I see it they are hoping they can get the sanctions to be lifted swiftly somehow. If they can't, then they are in for a long cold winter.
A long and cold winter it will be, sanctions are going nowhere I reckon.
 

Hamster

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The Netherlands also made a small, but decent, donation.
I think those were blocked by Germany because they were German made and niw finally Germany allowed it.

That's how I understood it anyway with the quality journalism we have these days.
 
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