US and NATO escalation of conflict with Russia is leading to war

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Sneeky

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Russia gets given a lot of leeway. Like a petulant child. NATO and allies are the responsible and mature parties here.
Russia in my view is far from a petulant child. They are a world power and act accordingly.
Far from a petulant child, more like a big brother. They command respect and deserve it.

My only point is they push that envelope, as they have done into the so called Ukraine buffer zone they want, its only right to push back. It is not their land.
Ukraine choosing or wanting to side with Nato is pissing Putin off, to hell with him.
Nato would not be amiss to use Putin's very same logic to confront their aggression in the Ukraine, to protect themselves and ensure a (very same) buffer.

Putin is a paranoid Poeth.
The caveat is if Putin believes this action will provide him with any form or sort of buffer zone he is so horribly mistaken.
 

The Trutherizer

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But I don't think that things will ever get to a point where this is going to make any reasonable shift within the eventual downfall of Russia its self. The war is on now, they won't stop with sanctions.
To be clear I don't see why Russia should need to fall. If they can get their politics in order then they can live along with the rest of the world no problem and have a great time along with everybody else.
This whole thing has been immensely unnecessary. Often seems rooted in some unfulfilled desire to be top dog. When really everybody's in the same boat in the end. Rocking it doesn't do anybody any favors.
 

Mirai

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Russia in my view is far from a petulant child. They are a world power and act accordingly.
Far from a petulant child, more like a big brother. They command respect and deserve it.

Russia's not fit to be anyone's big brother. Inside the country is a mess. It's run by oligarchs who put money offshore while ordinary Russians suffer. There are restrictions on freedoms and the same guy has been running the country for many years. That's not good in a democracy.

We could go on about the USSR but I think everyone knows the history of that. Unlike Germany and Japan, Russia never apologised nor paid any reparations for what they did to their neighbours during and after WW2.

Russia is now acting as though the world is out to get it. Yet that's not the case. Russia is the one threatening the rest of the world with nuclear annhilation while all the rest of the world wants to do is have a mutual protection pact. Russia is free to create such pacts itself, with any nations it wishes to do with, eg India, China, North Korea, etc.

Russia is treated nicely because the West tolerates its meddling in Europe, and other American and foreign interests, its refusal to let "republics" break away, areas which are not even Slavic or Russian, and which want to do so, and Russia still keeps a huge arsenal and funds a huge military which any normal nation should not need, all the while its people suffer.

My only point is they push that envelope, as they have done into the so called Ukraine buffer zone they want, its only right to push back. It is not their land.
Ukraine choosing or wanting to side with Nato is pissing Putin off, to hell with him.
Nato would not be amiss to use Putin's very same logic to confront their aggression in the Ukraine, to protect themselves and ensure a (very same) buffer.

NATO can't do that because NATO is made up of democratic nations and can't just start wars. Nor does it want to have nuclear weapons thrown at it. Aggression against Ukraine, Chechnya, Georgia and other places, is precisely why NATO is still needed. NATO membership should be extended to any parties who fit NATO's rules and who want to join it and who also share common democratic principles. An extended version of NATO would be a good thing for example, including Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand and maybe some other places.
 

IndigoIdentity

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To be clear I don't see why Russia should need to fall. If they can get their politics in order then they can live along with the rest of the world no problem and have a great time along with everybody else.
This whole thing has been immensely unnecessary. Often seems rooted in some unfulfilled desire to be top dog. When really everybody's in the same boat in the end. Rocking it doesn't do anybody any favors.
As much as I love that idea. I am aware that it sounds nicer on paper than it has played out throughout history.

My opinion? Russia isn't the target, China is. Together they are strong, individually they can fall. This is a war of ideologies and always has been, the global super powers are called this for a reason. Peace wasn't that reason.
 

The Trutherizer

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As much as I love that idea. I am aware that it sounds nicer on paper than it has played out throughout history.

My opinion? Russia isn't the target, China is. Together they are strong, individually they can fall. This is a war of ideologies and always has been, the global super powers are called this for a reason. Peace wasn't that reason.
There's a good chance China pushed Russia towards this. It's pure speculation of course.
If it was not convenient for China, then they would have exerted diplomatic pressure on Russia to not start this at all.
The chance that Russia unilaterally went into this without consulting China is infinitesimal.
 

Dave

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Ukraine invasion: Western allies agree to kick select Russian banks out of SWIFT - cutting them off from global financial network​

Western allies have agreed to remove selected Russian banks from the SWIFT messaging system, cutting them off from the international financial network.

In a joint statement, EU leaders and their counterparts in the UK, US and Canada reiterated their condemnation of Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, describing it as "an assault on fundamental international rules".

Headlining a raft of new measures, the statement said: "We commit to ensuring that selected Russian banks are removed from the SWIFT messaging system.

"This will ensure that these banks are disconnected from the international financial system and harm their ability to operate globally."
 

Mirai

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Mirai

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That link is breaking news, it's now been agreed by EU leaders and the UK, US and Canada.

It's still only a few banks. We know that the Germans were most against this and as said it's still only some of the banks.
 

Gramps66

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Russia in my view is far from a petulant child. They are a world power and act accordingly.
Far from a petulant child, more like a big brother. They command respect and deserve it.

My only point is they push that envelope, as they have done into the so called Ukraine buffer zone they want, its only right to push back. It is not their land.
Ukraine choosing or wanting to side with Nato is pissing Putin off, to hell with him.
Nato would not be amiss to use Putin's very same logic to confront their aggression in the Ukraine, to protect themselves and ensure a (very same) buffer.

Putin is a paranoid Poeth.
The caveat is if Putin believes this action will provide him with any form or sort of buffer zone he is so horribly mistaken.
NATO was formed in 1949 for one reason and one reason only, to protect European countries from invasion from Russia. After the cold war and the breakup of the USSR as we knew it NATO wasn't dismantled, instead they became a different kettle of fish . Globalist's whose only aim is to control gas, oil and pipelines .
 

IndigoIdentity

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There's a good chance China pushed Russia towards this. It's pure speculation of course.
If it was not convenient for China, then they would have exerted diplomatic pressure on Russia to not start this at all.
The chance that Russia unilaterally went into this without consulting China is infinitesimal.
Well, we would disagree there. I don't see China weakening it's strongest ally as being beneficial for China, it spells suicide and they know this.

Anyways i'm out - good chatting to you!
 

Dave

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@Mirai

I did a quick search to try and find the list, and found the following article. It seems that not only are they closing SWIFT for certain banks they will also be bringing in sanctions against the Russian Central Bank. That's probably a bigger deal than any removal from SWIFT.


Western leaders sanction Russia central bank and cut some lenders from Swift​


The US and western allies will place sanctions on the Russian central bank and remove some Russian banks from the Swift global payments system, in the harshest response to the Ukraine invasion.

In a joint statement, the US, UK, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and the European Commission said they would “prevent the Russian central bank from deploying its international reserves in ways that undermine the impact of our sanctions”.

“We will hold Russia to account and collectively ensure that this war is a strategic failure for Putin,” they added.

The group said they would take more measures against enablers of the invasion, including limiting the sale of “golden passports” that “let wealthy Russians connected to the Russian government become citizens of our countries and gain access to our financial systems”.

Ursula von der Leyen said she would propose to EU leaders that they should “paralyse the assets of Russia’s central bank” in order to freeze its transactions and make it impossible for it to liquidate its assets.

The joint action is the harshest measure imposed on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine. The US has previously only imposed sanctions on the central banks of Iran, Venezuela and North Korea.

A senior US banking executive said putting sanctions on the central bank was one of many options that the Biden administration had discussed with leading US financial groups in recent weeks to make sure banks were prepared for the possibility.

Josh Lipsky, a former IMF adviser now at the Atlantic Council think-tank, said earlier the US imposing sanctions on the Russian central bank would be an “extraordinarily significant and damaging move to the Russian economy”.

“A G20 central bank has never been sanctioned before. This is not Iran. This is not Venezuela. So to shut off their central bank from the international financial system, or at least the dollar and euro economy, is a massively destabilising move potentially,” said Lipsky.

Edward Fishman, a former US official now at the Center for a New American Security, said it would present a “devastating blow” to the Russian economy that would eclipse the significance of a ban on Swift.

“If you added the Russian central bank to the SDN list, it would be the single most impactful sanction that you could apply to Russia, and you could do it with a stroke of the pen,” he said. “It would render a sizeable chunk of their foreign exchange reserves unusable overnight.”

A ban would prohibit US entities from doing any dealings with the central bank. That would mean everyone in the world would be “skittish about moving any assets on behalf of the Russian central bank”, Fishman explained.
 
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