US and NATO escalation of conflict with Russia is leading to war

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TEXTILE GUY

TEXTILE GUY

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Human Rights Watch has run with this .....

Russia: With War, Censorship Reaches New Heights​

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(Berlin) – Russian authorities have threatened to fine or block 10 Russian independent media outlets if they do not delete publications about the war in Ukraine, Human Rights Watch said today. The authorities have interfered with access to Facebook and Twitter and have blocked access to another media website.

On February 26, 2022, Roskomnadzor, the state media and communications regulator, accused the 10 outlets of publishing “false information” about the war. The alleged false information includes information that the Russian military is shelling Ukrainian cities and causing civilian casualties and references to the armed conflict as “an attack,” “invasion,” or “declaration of war.” The Russian authorities appear to require outlets to refer to the war only as a “special operation in connection with the situation in Lugansk People’s Republic and Donetsk People’s Republic.”

“For the past decade, Russian authorities have used a web of vague laws and flimsy pretexts to intimidate and harass independent and dissenting voices,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “Now they are bluntly imposing censorship combined with a false narrative that they demand everyone must parrot.”

Roskomnadzor’s warning, published via the social media platform Telegram on February 26, was directed at the following outlets: Echo of Moscow, InoSMI, Media Zona, New Times, Dozhd, Svobodnay Pressa, Krym.Realii, Novaya Gazeta, Journalist, and Lenizdat. The authorities had earlier designated some of them as “foreign agent” media.
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TEXTILE GUY

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A Team Of American And British Special Forces Veterans Are Preparing To Join Ukraine’s Fight Against Russia​

The 10 NATO-trained war veterans are taking up President Volodymyr Zelensky’s offer for people to join a new unit of foreign fighters for Ukraine.
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The group, composed of six US citizens, three Brits, and a German, are NATO-trained and experienced in close combat and counterterrorism. They want to be among the first to officially join the new International Legion of the Territorial Defense of Ukraine that Zelensky announced Sunday, according to text messages reviewed by BuzzFeed News. Two former American infantry officers are also making plans to come to Ukraine to provide “leadership” for the group, the Army veteran recruiter said.
Click to expand...
www.buzzfeednews.com

A Team Of American And British Special Forces Veterans Are Preparing To Join Ukraine’s Fight Against Russia

The 10 NATO-trained war veterans are taking up President Volodymyr Zelensky’s offer for people to join a new unit of foreign fighters for Ukraine.
www.buzzfeednews.com www.buzzfeednews.com

Holiday with a difference for sure
 
Calkem

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Well, I have read alot of the comments from members of this forum and it is all the news right now and everyone has their 2c. A forum is not only a space were we should be shouting and fighting, but also a space were one should listen. I'm chuffed to see that many here are been respectful to others (by majority)

While a lot of commentary here is personal and devoid from facts or deflective in nature. Many commenters here we fail to be objective to facts and rather debate on whichever position we follow, be it pro-Ukraine or pro-Russian. They has been some members who have been pretty bias but fairly so, in these issues you need to know the pre- "invasion" background and the geo-politics of the region and military capabilities of the two belligerents.

Now I will be honest and say that I am Pro-Russian, but only from a factual background in this discussions, not that I support them at all costs, but from the holistic understanding from the historic events. Some anti-Russian sentiments here are pretty weak and hopeful instead of factual, they is many instance I can mention which I can put forward. Many Pro-Russian comments are not addressing the illegality of the Russian actions, and they mention the previous "invasions" of the USA/ West etc etc. We should not forget that these parties are really related and cut from the same cloth who are engaged in war that could have been avoided. We now have innocent victims in Ukraine who are suffering the brunt of the super-powers decisions. You can see a clear brotherhood between the Ukrainian and Russian soldiers who are jointly guarding Chernobyl togethier,

Now here is the thing. If I was to be honest and I am followed by most academics, most are not pro-Russian but lay the blame at Ukraine and USA. Anyone who might look at the events and the historical context will easily how we are at this point. Propaganda is largely from the Ukrainian side, that is clear even BBC has highlighted that in their articles, perharps, and likely in Russia they is more Russian propaganda. Now I again understand that many do not have the knowledge the area events and politics, but I am pretty sure if you did have some information you would see that Russia has good reason. I do believe that Ukraine has been hood-winked and "bamboozled" into provoking Russia, and it was sad to see Zelensky who begged for "Immediate EU membership" yesterday and Joseh Borrell literally laughed at a prospect of Ukraine been incorprated in the EU. It shows that they is some beliefs Kiev held that they will be protected and were disillusioned in what will happen in a Russian "invasion". On CapeTalk last night I heard one Professor (leftist) stating that Zelensky admitted that they were mislead by the West, I checked online and I can not find that video, but it seems fair that it is possible. We might go back and look at Yugoslavia, and look at what a urban, civilian assault looks like. Now, I support Russia, not that I like them for the following reasons:

1. We have for the past years 13 000- 15 000 Russian speaking people in Ukraine who have been killed by Ukraine. Many have been gang raped, goods looted. Honestly, no nation like Russia can accept that type of situation
2. Minsk 2 accord. In the early 90's we had Gorbachev who allowed East Germany to be incorporated into Germany as a nation with the rule that NATO not expand and from 97 NATO has expanded in Eastern Europe
3. The Russian military operation has by majority focused on military installations, people of Ukraine are not afraid of Russian military men, and some semblance of life is still going on in Ukraine. Civil deaths are few and it seems that Kiev citizens are now been armed and are looting the city
4. Propaganda that we are receiving (including Russian media) is largely trying to mould our minds again the current operation
5. I support a short demilitarization of Ukraine which will prevent further loss of lives in eastern Ukraine and ALSO prevent any a greater Russian aggression against Ukraine

Not that what I will now say make a difference, but everyone here needs to separate their emotions and reasonable facts and likelihoods. Of note is that Biden said that Russia does not have "the right" to recognize an independent state, it is ironic that George Bush recognised Ukraine as a country outside the USSR which was a shock, ironic. When we start to play positions on which side we are on instead of the truth, we dilute our own personal ethics and convictions. Everybody knows Russian (militarily) will by far crush Ukraine, no use spending days here arguing otherwise and focusing on Ukraine "wins" as sad it may be. It is the same as our local politicians knowing what is right for the country, decide to do what is right for their agenda's. This is for pro-Russian and anti-Russian statements. If you know the brutality the Ukrainian military in eastern Ukraine has been committing you would understand well the position of Russia. They has been many years of discussions/talks.

Ask yourself, if you where a Russian citizen been threatened by NATO or a citizen in Luhansk after years of living like a hobo from middle class lifestyle how would you feel. On the other hand, how does one feel living in Lutsk been brought into the fray by now having to move and suffer. Now who is the perp's here? You know.... But President Zelansky obviously was mislead and used as a pawn to make his population suffer. Russian citizens will now also suffer due to the sanctions as well. India, China, Africa, S.America populations, not necessarily governments support Russia with the scope they have about the events. Operation Unthinkable and others where not by the USSR, everybody wants peace, Banderites and other paramilitary groups have to accept to come to peace as well.

Be objective or atleast lets try, if not you defeat your own moral conscience. Follow your views on principal not not group interests. Point out faults even they are yours.
 
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TEXTILE GUY

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ANC WARNS AGAINST TAKING SIDES IN UKRAINE-RUSSIA CONFLICT​

"We don't even want to really go there - we have issued our statement. Countries that aren't involved in this should not themselves be seen to be sponsoring what might not become helpful, take sides of this or that country. South Africa's position is quite clear, coming from the ANC, that in the Freedom Charter, that we spoke of peace and friendship," Mabe said.
Click to expand...
https://ewn.co.za/2022/02/28/anc-warns-against-taking-sides-in-ukraine-russia-conflict
In line with our 2012 policy resolutions, that called on "all South Africans to support the programmes and campaigns of the Palestinian civil society which seek to put pressure on Israel", branches and structures of the ANC across the country will be joining the Palestine solidarity and boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement in organizing protests and pickets calling for the immediate end of Israeli violence against the Palestinian people.
Click to expand...
https://www.facebook.com/MyANCza/ph...can-national-congress-anccon/798828593485257/

And then again - the flip flopping ANC talking shidt as they do.
Fence sitters today - opinionated thieves yesterday. Personally I couldnt give a shidt who they support or don't, but FFS, make up their minds - are they neutral because of their Freedumb Charter or are they activists because they want to be relevant.

I swear, the circus left town without this bunch of clowns, and they were just to dumb to catch up with the ringmaster.
 
Fred07

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Calkem said:
Well, I have read alot of the comments from members of this forum and it is all the news right now and everyone has there 2c. A forum is not only a space were we should be shouting and fighting, but also a space were one should listen. I'm chuffed to see that many here are been respectful to others (by majority)

While a lot of commentary here is personal and devoid from facts or deflective in nature. Many commenters here we fail to be objective to facts and rather debate on whichever position we follow, be it pro-Ukraine or pro-Russian. They has been some members who have been pretty bias but fairly so, in these issues you need to know the pre- "invasion" background and the geo-politics of the region and military capabilities of the two belligerents.

Now I will be honest and say that I am Pro-Russian, but only from a factual background in this discussions, not that I support them at all costs, but from the holistic understanding from the historic events. Some anti-Russian sentiments here are pretty weak and hopeful instead of factual, they is many instance I can mention which I can put forward. Many Pro-Russian comments are not addressing the illegality of the Russian actions, and they mention the previous "invasions" of the USA/ West etc etc. We should not forget that these parties are really related and cut from the same cloth who are engaged in war that could have been avoided. We now have innocent victims in Ukraine who are suffering the brunt of the super-powers decisions. You can see a clear brotherhood between the Ukrainian and Russian soldiers who are jointly guarding Chernobyl togethier,

Now here is the thing. If I was to be honest and I am followed by most academics, most are not pro-Russian but lay the blame at Ukraine and USA. Anyone who might look at the events and the historical context will easily how we are at this point. Propaganda is largely from the Ukrainian side, that is clear even BBC has highlighted that in their articles. Now I again understand that many do not have the knowledge the area events and politics, but I am pretty sure if you did have some information you would see that Russia has good reason. I do believe that Ukraine has been hood-winked into provoking Russia, and it was sad to see Zelensky who begged for "Immediate EU membership" yesterday, it shows that they is some beliefs Kiev held that they will be protected and were disillusioned in what will happen in a Russian "invasion". We might go back and look at Yugoslavia, and look at what a urban, civilian assault looks like. Now, I support Russia, not that I like them for the following reasons:

1. We have for the past years 13 000- 15 000 Russian speaking people in Ukraine who have been killed by Ukraine. Many have been gang raped, goods looted. Honestly, no nation like Russia can accept that type of situation
2. Minsk 2 accord. In the early 90's we had Gorbachev who allowed East Germany to be incorporated into Germany as a nation with the rule that NATO not expand and from 97 NATO has expanded in Eastern Europe
3. The Russian military operation has by majority focused on military installations, people of Ukraine are not afraid of Russian military men, and some semblance of life is still going on in Ukraine. Civil deaths are few and it seems that Kiev citizens are now been armed and are looting the city
4. Propaganda that we are receiving (including Russian media) is largely trying to mould our minds again the current operation
5. I support a short demilitarization of Ukraine which will prevent further loss of lives in eastern Ukraine and ALSO prevent any a greater Russian aggression against Ukraine

Not that what I will now say make a difference, but everyone here needs to separate their emotions and reasonable facts and likelihoods. Of note is that Biden said that Russia does not have "the right" to recognize an independent state, it is ironic that George Bush recognised Ukraine as a country outside the USSR which was a shock, irony. When we start to play positions on which side we are on instead of the truth, we dilute our own personal ethics and convictions. Everybody knows Russian (militarily) will by far crush Ukraine, no use spending days here arguing otherwise and focusing on Ukraine "wins" as sad it may be. It is the same as our local politicians knowing what is right for the country, decide to do what is right for their agenda's. This is for pro-Russian and anti-Russian statements. If you know the brutality the Ukrainian military in eastern Ukraine has been committing you would understand well the position of Russia. They has been many years of discussions.

Ask yourself, if you where a Russian citizen been threatened by NATO or a citizen in Luhansk after years of living like a hobo from middle class lifestyle how would you feel. On the other hand, how does one feel living in Lutsk been brought into the fray by now having to move and suffer. Now who is the perp's here? You know.... But President Zelansky obviously was mislead and used as a pawn to make his population suffer. Russian citizens will now also suffer due to the sanctions as well. India, China, Africa, S.America populations, not necessarily governments support Russia with the scope they have about the events. Operation Unthinkable and others where not by the USSR, everybody wants peace, Banderites and other paramilitary groups have to accept to come to peace as well.

Be objective or atleast lets try, if not you defeat your own moral conscience. Follow your views on principal not not group interests. Point out faults even they are yours.
Click to expand...
Whew, full of spelling, grammar and sentence construction errors. Next time only post when you've made sure everything makes sense.

GM. Grammar Nazi.........
 
TEXTILE GUY

TEXTILE GUY

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Calkem said:
/snip
Click to expand...
The secret to a thread like this - is to ignore the trolls and extremists. They add no value.
Emotion and fact don't fit well together, not in business not in arguments and not in war, as you quite rightly say, so one can either follow the emotional chatter or focus on the facts.

I see your reasoning behind the Russian view, and frankly, I personally see them as sound. Having said that, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin had the final say on unfolding events, and sending in tanks and soldiers was- at best - a kak idea, in my opinion.

Personally, I am in the process of trying to relocate to the USA. I am taking my kids with me.
If I had to get upset, everytime someone had a go at the US, I would live my life in tears. Water off a ducks back to me. Having said that, Joseph R Biden - well - I have an opinion on that chap, but its not for this thread, and not for this group.

To your question "Ask yourself, if you where a Russian citizen been threatened by NATO or a citizen in Luhansk after years of living like a hobo from middle class lifestyle how would you feel."
Well, I am not a Russian citizen, and dont live in that area. I am however a South African citizen, and feel threatened by my own government and elements in the country. I have also chosen to make changes to my life and am trying to seek a life elsewhere. I have given up my home, and for what its worth, I was also a soldier for SA, and feel I paid some dues to live there. But again, another topic for another audience.

So, where does that leave us?

Well, Russia and Ukraine are at war. Lets see where it takes them.



 
Calkem

Calkem

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Fred07 said:
Whew, full of spelling, grammar and sentence construction errors. Next time only post when you've made sure everything makes sense.

GM. Grammar Nazi.........
Click to expand...
All you got from my post is spelling, grammar and sentence construction errors.

Oyi, like many comments here your revert is without substative revert, this is exactly what I was talking about.
 
The Trutherizer

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Calkem said:
2. Minsk 2 accord. In the early 90's we had Gorbachev who allowed East Germany to be incorporated into Germany as a nation with the rule that NATO not expand and from 97 NATO has expanded in Eastern Europe
Click to expand...
I'm going to focus here on one point here that keeps coming up in the debate.


The full text of the Minsk II agreement:
  1. Immediate and full ceasefire in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine and its strict fulfilment as of 00:00 midnight EET on 15 February 2015.
  2. Pull-out of all heavy weapons by both sides to equal distance with the aim of creation of a security zone on minimum 50 kilometres (31 mi) apart for artillery of 100mm calibre or more, and a security zone of 70 kilometres (43 mi) for multiple rocket launchers (MRLS) and 140 kilometres (87 mi) for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch, and Tochka U tactical missile systems:
    • for Ukrainian troops, from actual line of contact;
    • for armed formations of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, from the contact line in accordance with the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014

      The pullout of the above-mentioned heavy weapons must start no later than the second day after the start of the ceasefire and finish within 14 days.

      This process will be assisted by OSCE with the support of the Trilateral Contact Group.
  3. Effective monitoring and verification of ceasefire regime and pullout of heavy weapons by OSCE will be provided from the first day of pullout, using all necessary technical means such as satellites, drones, radio-location systems etc.
  4. On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law.

    Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.
  5. Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine.
  6. Provide release and exchange of all hostages and illegally held persons, based on the principle of "all for all". This process has to end – at the latest – on the fifth day after the pullout (of weapons).
  7. Provide safe access, delivery, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid to the needy, based on an international mechanism.
  8. Define the modalities of a full restoration of social and economic connections, including social transfers, such as payments of pensions and other payments (income and revenue, timely payment of communal bills, restoration of tax payments within the framework of Ukrainian legal field).

    With this aim, Ukraine will restore management over the segment of its banking system in the districts affected by the conflict, and possibly, an international mechanism will be established to ease such transactions.
  9. Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.
  10. Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups.
  11. Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with a new constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralisation (taking into account peculiarities of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, agreed with representatives of these districts), and also approval of permanent legislation on the special status of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in accordance with the measures spelt out in the attached footnote,[note 1] by the end of 2015.
  12. Based on the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts", questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.
  13. Intensify the work of the Trilateral Contact Group including through the establishment of working groups on the implementation of relevant aspects of the Minsk agreements. They will reflect the composition of the Trilateral Contact Group.

All of it. No more, no less.

Now tell me please... 2 things.
A: Where in this agreement is any condition surrounding NATO and its activities? Let alone anything relating to the Russian withdrawal from Germany years and years before this.
B: Do you even know that at the time of Russian withdrawal from the GDR (East Germany) there was only one condition relating to eastward NATO expansion in any way or form at all. That the former GDR (East Germany) would not be reinforced by non-German NATO forces and structures. Something Germany and the West has abided by since then.

Take note! German forces would be 100% fine according the the spirit and letter of that agreement. Even though Germany is a member of NATO.
So how about those non-German NATO forces.

For reference a map of full or partial non-German military facilities in Germany...
1646096886354.png
And a map of the previous East and West division in germany...
1646096927854.png
No non-German forces in the ex GDR...

Even Gorbachev, who was president of Russia at the time, himself has publicly stated in Russia, on Russian media, that this is all the agreement amounted to. For all that at the time it was probably not expected that so many Russian states would sue for independence, and that some would want to become NATO members.

M.G.: The topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification.

The missiles defences Putin hates so much that he says is against the agreement - In Poland. No agreement broken. (I'm sure they are glad they have that now btw)
How about all the countries that Putin claims joined NATO in contravention of the agreement? It wasn't even considered. No. Agreement. Broken.

And hell! Putin is digging up old stinky cows from the days of the USSR. As if that even still exists and Perestroika and Glasnost never happened!
Putin is taking the world back in time to a bad place.
 
Last edited:
roadcat

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Calkem said:
All you got from my post is spelling, grammar and sentence construction errors.

Oyi, like many comments here your revert is without substative revert, this is exactly what I was talking about.
Click to expand...
Your post was good, but you did sway into bias a few times. You did admit your bias so I'll give you that.

"1. We have for the past years 13 000- 15 000 Russian speaking people in Ukraine who have been killed by Ukraine. Many have been gang raped, goods looted. Honestly, no nation like Russia can accept that type of situation"
--Now imagine England having this view of the world...

"Civil deaths are few and it seems that Kiev citizens are now been armed and are looting the city"
--Is this your opinion?

"lay the blame at Ukraine and USA"
--Like Russia, hate USA. The US certainly put their noses where they don't belong way too much, but blaming them for Russia invading Ukraine?

There are a few more, but granted it's impossible to write a neutral post when you have a preference for a side.
 
The Darkness

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Calkem said:
Well, I have read alot of the comments from members of this forum and it is all the news right now and everyone has their 2c. A forum is not only a space were we should be shouting and fighting, but also a space were one should listen. I'm chuffed to see that many here are been respectful to others (by majority)

While a lot of commentary here is personal and devoid from facts or deflective in nature. Many commenters here we fail to be objective to facts and rather debate on whichever position we follow, be it pro-Ukraine or pro-Russian. They has been some members who have been pretty bias but fairly so, in these issues you need to know the pre- "invasion" background and the geo-politics of the region and military capabilities of the two belligerents.

Now I will be honest and say that I am Pro-Russian, but only from a factual background in this discussions, not that I support them at all costs, but from the holistic understanding from the historic events. Some anti-Russian sentiments here are pretty weak and hopeful instead of factual, they is many instance I can mention which I can put forward. Many Pro-Russian comments are not addressing the illegality of the Russian actions, and they mention the previous "invasions" of the USA/ West etc etc. We should not forget that these parties are really related and cut from the same cloth who are engaged in war that could have been avoided. We now have innocent victims in Ukraine who are suffering the brunt of the super-powers decisions. You can see a clear brotherhood between the Ukrainian and Russian soldiers who are jointly guarding Chernobyl togethier,

Now here is the thing. If I was to be honest and I am followed by most academics, most are not pro-Russian but lay the blame at Ukraine and USA. Anyone who might look at the events and the historical context will easily how we are at this point. Propaganda is largely from the Ukrainian side, that is clear even BBC has highlighted that in their articles, perharps, and likely in Russia they is more Russian propaganda. Now I again understand that many do not have the knowledge the area events and politics, but I am pretty sure if you did have some information you would see that Russia has good reason. I do believe that Ukraine has been hood-winked and "bamboozled" into provoking Russia, and it was sad to see Zelensky who begged for "Immediate EU membership" yesterday and Joseh Borrell literally laughed at a prospect of Ukraine been incorprated in the EU. It shows that they is some beliefs Kiev held that they will be protected and were disillusioned in what will happen in a Russian "invasion". On CapeTalk last night I heard one Professor (leftist) stating that Zelensky admitted that they were mislead by the West, I checked online and I can not find that video, but it seems fair that it is possible. We might go back and look at Yugoslavia, and look at what a urban, civilian assault looks like. Now, I support Russia, not that I like them for the following reasons:

1. We have for the past years 13 000- 15 000 Russian speaking people in Ukraine who have been killed by Ukraine. Many have been gang raped, goods looted. Honestly, no nation like Russia can accept that type of situation
2. Minsk 2 accord. In the early 90's we had Gorbachev who allowed East Germany to be incorporated into Germany as a nation with the rule that NATO not expand and from 97 NATO has expanded in Eastern Europe
3. The Russian military operation has by majority focused on military installations, people of Ukraine are not afraid of Russian military men, and some semblance of life is still going on in Ukraine. Civil deaths are few and it seems that Kiev citizens are now been armed and are looting the city
4. Propaganda that we are receiving (including Russian media) is largely trying to mould our minds again the current operation
5. I support a short demilitarization of Ukraine which will prevent further loss of lives in eastern Ukraine and ALSO prevent any a greater Russian aggression against Ukraine

Not that what I will now say make a difference, but everyone here needs to separate their emotions and reasonable facts and likelihoods. Of note is that Biden said that Russia does not have "the right" to recognize an independent state, it is ironic that George Bush recognised Ukraine as a country outside the USSR which was a shock, ironic. When we start to play positions on which side we are on instead of the truth, we dilute our own personal ethics and convictions. Everybody knows Russian (militarily) will by far crush Ukraine, no use spending days here arguing otherwise and focusing on Ukraine "wins" as sad it may be. It is the same as our local politicians knowing what is right for the country, decide to do what is right for their agenda's. This is for pro-Russian and anti-Russian statements. If you know the brutality the Ukrainian military in eastern Ukraine has been committing you would understand well the position of Russia. They has been many years of discussions/talks.

Ask yourself, if you where a Russian citizen been threatened by NATO or a citizen in Luhansk after years of living like a hobo from middle class lifestyle how would you feel. On the other hand, how does one feel living in Lutsk been brought into the fray by now having to move and suffer. Now who is the perp's here? You know.... But President Zelansky obviously was mislead and used as a pawn to make his population suffer. Russian citizens will now also suffer due to the sanctions as well. India, China, Africa, S.America populations, not necessarily governments support Russia with the scope they have about the events. Operation Unthinkable and others where not by the USSR, everybody wants peace, Banderites and other paramilitary groups have to accept to come to peace as well.

Be objective or atleast lets try, if not you defeat your own moral conscience. Follow your views on principal not not group interests. Point out faults even they are yours.
Click to expand...
I stopped reading after you wrote "alot"
 
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