US and NATO escalation of conflict with Russia is leading to war

[rvZA]

You might want to go do a little research, say from the 1990s on...

I have been to couple of them in 1996. I think they all missed Mother Russia. Countries like Bulgaria never really let the communism out of their system though.... and that was evidend when I landed in Sofia at 05:30 on a snowy morning and the plain met by about 100 armed soldiers chasing everyone into the terminal...

 

[Grant]

I have been to couple of them in 1996. I think they all missed Mother Russia. Countries like Bulgaria never really let the communism out of their system though.... and that was evidend when I landed in Sofia at 05:30 on a snowy morning and the plain met by about 100 armed soldiers chasing everyone into the terminal...

Sounds like you were on an aeroflot flight

 

[rvZA]

Sounds like you were on an aeroflot flight

Actually not... Balkan.

 

[Grant]

Actually not... Balkan.

I was on an aeroflot flight to St Petersburg decades ago as a kid with my parents.
They had this thing for doing what the locals did in whichever country we visited - this extended to aeroflot.

The cabin crew were not what one would generally describe as "inviting".
The lunch meal at best could be described as institutional - shades of brown and grey.
My parents found this all rather exotic. For my part I would have been happier with a big mac or kfc.

 

[rvZA]

I was on an aeroflot flight to St Petersburg decades ago as a kid with my parents.
They had this thing for doing what the locals did in whichever country we visited - this extended to aeroflot.

The cabin crew were not what one would generally describe as "inviting".
The lunch meal at best could be described as institutional - shades of brown and grey.
My parents found this all rather exotic. For my part I would have been happier with a big mac or kfc.

I have to admit, had a similar experience on Balkan. Was a decent Boeing 767 aircraft at the time. The cabin crew was definitely not proficient in English and we had very little conversations with some of them. I can't even remember the food, but I definitely enjoyed the dessert, because that was all I actually liked on the flight.

Nonetheless, I did not enjoy the military activities at the airport both inside and out. We had a long layover of about 12 hours. Come to think of it now, we should have tried to get a visa to go out of the airport for the day....

 

[Dave]

I have been to couple of them in 1996. I think they all missed Mother Russia. Countries like Bulgaria never really let the communism out of their system though.... and that was evidend when I landed in Sofia at 05:30 on a snowy morning and the plain met by about 100 armed soldiers chasing everyone into the terminal...

In 2021 Bulgaria scores almost as high as SA for freedom, remember the issue was @Thor claimed it wasn't a democracy.

Countries and Territories

Freedom House rates people’s access to political rights and civil liberties in 210 countries and territories through its annual Freedom in the World report. Individual freedoms—ranging from the right to vote to freedom of expression and equality before the law—can be affected by state or...

freedomhouse.org

 

[Sensorei]

. What would you take this to mean :

I would take that to be a hogwash sentence taken out of context and reworded to suit your narrative.

Nowhere in the 1997 Founding Act of Mutual Relations did it state specificly that each country had a "sovereign right to seek alliances". Even if it did 'Allliance' does not imply a military alliance with probably occupation by NATO military forces.

Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation signed in Paris, France

www.nato.int

 

[Grant]

I have to admit, had a similar experience on Balkan. Was a decent Boeing 767 aircraft at the time. The cabin crew was definitely not proficient in English and we had very little conversations with some of them. I can't even remember the food, but I definitely enjoyed the dessert, because that was all I actually liked on the flight.

Nonetheless, I did not enjoy the military activities at the airport both inside and out. We had a long layover of about 12 hours. Come to think of it now, we should have tried to get a visa to go out of the airport for the day....

The plane we were on was long before the advent of a 767.
The plane was neither Boeing or Airbus. Nor was it Russian.
It was quite thin, rather uncomfortable and very noisy. Without doubt my most uncomfortable flight ever. Within 10 minutes in the air I was looking around wondering what the thing was. It was hideous. Clean and well maintained, but just a hideous aircraft.

 

[Grant]

I would take that to be a hogwash sentence taken out of context and reworded to suit your narrative.

Nowhere in the 1997 Founding Act of Mutual Relations did it state specificly that each country had a "sovereign right to seek alliances". Even if it did 'Allliance' does not imply a military alliance with probably occupation by NATO military forces.

Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation signed in Paris, France

www.nato.int

No Komrad
But what is my narrative, given you seem to know it ?

Founding Act

on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation signed in Paris, France

To achieve the aims of this Act, NATO and Russia will base their relations on a shared commitment to the following principles:

refraining from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act;

respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents;

Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation signed in Paris, France

www.nato.int

then your 2 + 4 agreement:

West promised not to expand NATO Der Spiegel

NATO deceived Russia about expansion and a British document proves it, top German weekly discovers A newly discovered document from March

www.parisguardian.com

The minutes of a March 6, 1991 meeting in Bonn between political directors of the foreign ministries of the US, UK, France, and Germany contain multiple references to “2+4” talks on German unification in which the West made it “clear” to the Soviet Union that NATO will not expand past the eastern borders of Germany.

is that agreement with the soviet union not the same as an agreement with the british empire ?
both are long gone.

which regions of the soviet union is that applicable to - the entire non-existant soviet union, or just the convenient bits ?

 

[Grant]

A Russian nuclear submarine docks in an American port, the commander disembarks and looks around.
He sees a large hardware store opposite the harbor and takes a walk to the store.
On entering, he is greeted by a salesman. The commander tells the salesman he is from the submarine in the harbor, and would like to speak to the manager.

The manager comes over and asks how he can help.
“I would like a rubber doormat”, says the commander.
What is the rubber doormat for - asks the manager.
“I would like a rubber doormat, for my nuclear submarine”, says the commander pointing to the submarine in the harbor.

The store manager gazes at the submarine for a few moments, then shows the commander the range of rubber doormats.
The store manager then turns to the commander and says to him “choose which ever mat you prefer, it seems like a fair enough swap, but I have no idea what I’m going to do with a nuclear submarine”.

 

[Grant]

Q: What is the most frequently used item found in a Russian submarine ?
A: The train timetable.

Q: Why are Russian cars fitted with a heated rear window?
A: To prevent the owner’s wife getting frostbite while she pushes the car.

 

[ForceFate]

If that part is accurate it highlights just how unproductive the old Soviet communist regime was, that resulted in the Holodomor

Wasn't it manufactured? Read a post here once that explained in a bit more detail. I don't remember who the author was.

 

[Sensorei]

No Komrad
But what is my narrative, given you seem to know it ?

Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation signed in Paris, France

www.nato.int

then your 2 + 4 agreement:


is that agreement with the soviet union not the same as an agreement with the british empire ?
both are long gone.

which regions of the soviet union is that applicable to - the entire non-existant soviet union, or just the convenient bits ?

Couldn't care what your narrative is. It's just not about looking for the truth.

Of course the sociopolitical and security environment in Eastern Europe is today are very different to the 90's. But the minutes from the 1991 meeting and the 2+4 agreement are 100% relevant as the agreement was part of the terms for the Soviet withdrawal of their forces in Eastern Europe during the dissolution of the Soviet Empire. The Americans said that NATO wouldn't push beyond the borders of Germany after the Cold War.

Nowhere in any previous agreements with NATO did The Soviets/Russia agree to expansion of NATO to Russian borders. Russia are justified in not wanting a NATO base on their borders. But if they invade Ukraine without provocation (which won't happen) then they deserve a sh1tstorm.

“We made it clear to the Soviet Union – in the 2+4 talks, as well as in other negotiations – that we do not intend to benefit from the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Eastern Europe,” - US Assistant Secretary of State for Europe Raymond Seitz.

“NATO should not expand to the east, either officially or unofficially,” Seitz added.

 

[theratman]

Ukraine: Russia plans biggest war in Europe since 1945 - Boris Johnson

Boris Johnson tells BBC that intelligence suggests Russia intends to launch an invasion encircling Kyiv.

www.bbc.com

Evidence suggests Russia is planning "the biggest war in Europe since 1945", Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said.
He told the BBC's Sophie Raworth in an interview: "All the signs are that the plan has already in some senses begun."
Intelligence suggests Russia intends to launch an invasion that will encircle Ukrainian capital Kyiv, Mr Johnson said.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Ukraine: Russia plans biggest war in Europe since 1945 - Boris Johnson

Boris Johnson tells BBC that intelligence suggests Russia intends to launch an invasion encircling Kyiv.

www.bbc.com

I see that same article have it that the Russians has, again, increased their troops. 150 000 was the last number, now it is between 169,000 and 190,000 Russian troops stationed along Ukraine's border, but the same paragraph has a disclaimer,

but this figure also includes rebels in eastern Ukraine.

 

[IndigoIdentity]

In 2021 Bulgaria scores almost as high as SA for freedom, remember the issue was @Thor claimed it wasn't a democracy.

My humble guess is that it is more than likely that what Thor is actually referring to are the socialists given that they are commonly lumped together under the same umbrella.

The communist socialists didn't just evaporate when the Soviet Union was dismantled, they simply re-imagined themselves as democrats, liberals and republicans but they still held on to many of their socialist ideals. It's evident in the socioeconomic policies of said countries and the fact that they still have socialist aligned political parties which actively participate this very day.

Take South Africa for instance, it's called a democracy which most people think makes it a capitalist country but in actual fact the policies are far more of the socialist capitalist kind. There are bailouts using public funds for the failing SOE's, there are talks of increasing taxes to cover public subsidies such as universal healthcare, basic income, free education, housing and access to basic services and , heck you can have as many kids as you want and the rest of the country should take care of you and them. These are not capitalist ideals, they are socialist ones. Then you get the EFF and their push for policies which lean more towards the far right of socialism where they are borderline communist ideas, but heck who can blame them they were outfitted and trained by the communists after all so it's no wonder that some of it would rub off on their thought process.

Even in the worlds bastions of capitalism there exists a clear divide on this where they practice some forms of socialism mixed in with the capitalist ideology. So yeah, the EU is actually divided on their ideologies where some countries lean more towards socialist ideas than others do. It is amazing how they have managed to hold things together for so long. Heck, what's even more amazing is how the the entire world has managed to play nicely together for so long given that it is is divided in two with half of the worlds population living in a socialist country and the other half, well, they are "capitalists", right?

 

[IndigoIdentity]

I see that same article have it that the Russians has, again, increased their troops. 150 000 was the last number, now it is between 169,000 and 190,000 Russian troops stationed along Ukraine's border, but the same paragraph has a disclaimer,

Boris needs to go back to punting Peppa Pig World, this math stuff is too much for him.

 

[Sensorei]

Willy Wimmer, former vice president of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe told RT he personally witnessed the West vowing that NATO would not expand to the east.

"Berlin’s decision at that time “not to station NATO troops on the territory of the former East Germany and to stop NATO near the Oder” was part of this promise, Wimmer added."

 

[Fulcrum29]

Boris needs to go back to punting Peppa Pig World, this math stuff is too much for him.

I would say an invasion is possible, though not highly probable, but every government, party here, is pushing a narrative. When the Japanese met with Putin, they kept it short and simple, and strictly political business.

The Russian and Belarus military drills are coming to an end today, what happens then to the Russian military assets in Belarus I don’t know, but the ‘West’ has used satellite imagery over Belarus to support their views and to convey those views to the public, even though similar exercises took place last year in Belarus, but now being on the Belarus-Ukrainian border which was announced and publicly reported by the Russians and Belarus.

I still don’t see the Russians do ballistic and cruise missile launches, drills yes, but no launches. Not when they are planning to invade, within what is believed as an imminent window. There is too much ‘readiness’ at stake. In the case they aren’t invading, I am sure they will put up quite the show to be watched by the West.

 

[Grant]

This is a rather interesting thread, less so the subject of discussion, but more it's participants.

Quite a few who scream communism at everything, have tossed aside their soaked panties and lining up here with their pompoms doing high kicks for soviet kgb operative and lizard king, Putin.

But of Putin, he would be crucified by the same torch carrying mob were he black and Russia an African state. Corruption in Russia is a way of life for many, as it is with African strongmen. Putin, like his African strongmen peers, also changes the law as he sees fit to remain in power.

People poked fun at our very own dear leader Malema, with this fancy house, range rover, breitling and loius vuitton accessories - how could he afford it all on his salary. How could zuma afford all on his salary.
And then we have putin, a man of extraordinary wealth surrounded by his circle of oligarchs, not much different to zuma and his gupta, shaik, reddy circle.
Zuma, not much different to putin, except black.

Why is it our ultra conservative right wingers are so eager to give putin free passes when he is, if not more, corrupt than our own zuma, mugabe and malema.

All very perplexing