US and NATO escalation of conflict with Russia is leading to war

[thestaggy]

we share history, family and all of that with the Netherlands, that is simply stating fact

does that now mean I want South Africa to invade Netherlands?

your mental leap was one too far, talking about a shared history has no bearing on military action, Putin was stating that as a reason the breakaway regions cannot be abandoned by Russia, they've only been fighting for their freedom 8 years now ...

Cope.

He mentions Ukraine, as a whole. Not the breakaway regions.

Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Crimea. Track record of interfering in the sovereign affairs of former Soviet Republics on the basis of them having Russian populations.

 

[s0lar]

That definitely would happen knowing how Putin operates. But it would only end up being a few dozen members of political opposition sent to prison maps or out right executed at the very most.

Oh ok. Jeez my bad.

And Iraq has weapons of "mass destruction", gotcha.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Cope.

He mentions Ukraine, as a whole. Not the breakaway regions.

he specifically went on to talk about not abandoning Russian brothers and sisters after that, you can't edit out the context after the fact

Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria. Track record of interfering in the sovereign affairs of former Soviet Republics on the basis of them being Russian.

much worse would be to appear to be in need of democracy, the US has invaded many more countries than that under the banner of "freeing" them

 

[s0lar]

He's the aggressor in this situation... Not Ukraine, not Nato, not the US

Doing military manoeuvres within the countries borders? Oh ok.

Guess our definitions of aggression are different. US in this case is more aggressive sending arms to Ukraine. Come on now, take a step back at the big picture.

 

[rambo919]

he specifically went on to talk about not abandoning Russian brothers and sisters after that, you can't edit out the context after the fact

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Mother Russia has for as long as it has existed tried to mother it's satellite states to death.

Annexation is possible because the states are just outside of Russian borders.

A better example would be SA annexing Namibia or Botswana to bring their ethnically shared populations into the fold of mother SA.

 

[thestaggy]

he specifically went on to talk about not abandoning Russian brothers and sisters after that, you can't edit out the context after the fact

And he specifically mentioned Ukraine.

much worse would be to appear to be in need of democracy, the US has invaded many more countries than that under the banner of "freeing" them

US international failures and problematic interventionism does not give Russia and Putin a free pass. This is the problem in this thread. People rip the US apart for what they have done in places like Iraq and Libya, but they are in full Stevie Wonder-mode when Georgia and Ukraine have their sovereignty compromised by Russia.

 

[Polymathic]

Oh ok. Jeez my bad.

And Iraq has weapons of "mass destruction", gotcha.

Learn to read between the lines of the media spin.

Doing military manoeuvres within the countries borders? Oh ok.

Guess our definitions of aggression are different. US in this case is more aggressive sending arms to Ukraine. Come on now, take a step back at the big picture.

Which conveniently places masses of troops near the border of an adversarial country.

 

[ShaunSA]

Page 69. Is it war or love?

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

You are comparing apples and oranges

in that bit you quoted I'm merely stating fact

Putin's speech started going on at length about their shared history not to justify an annexation of Ukraine itself, but to justify supporting the breakaway regions

he literally said so himself, thestaggy is just conveniently pretending it didn't happen

now that doesn't mean actions will be limited to this kind of support of course, but for the moment all we have is what was said, and what was said was specific to the breakaway regions

 

[rambo919]

But there is one point people are ignoring because it probably strikes too close to home.... a Russia vs Ukraine type scenario can conceivably play out as a Britain vs SA scenario if our government completely collapses.

Mother Britain could "come to the aid" of the lost duckling SA..... especially if the Suez and Panama canals close for some reason.

I wonder how much of the whinging about Ukraine is actually subconscious fear..... just putting that out there.

 

[rambo919]

in that bit you quoted I'm merely stating fact

Putin's speech started going on at length about their shared history not to justify an annexation of Ukraine itself, but to justify supporting the breakaway regions

he literally said so himself, thestaggy is just conveniently pretending it didn't happen

now that doesn't mean actions will be limited to this kind of support of course, but for the moment all we have is what was said, and what was said was specific to the breakaway regions

It's clear what is happening, Russia is supporting the breakup of previously Russian territories so that they can eventually be integrated back into a modern Russian empire.... this is realpolitik, Russia doing what is best for Russia.

@thestaggy is not pretending anything as far as I can see.... he is simply using the long view of history. How right or wrong it is for the large part is simply irrelevant, it's happening and nothing is going to stop it.

 

[IndigoIdentity]

That's delusional. Communism might have morphed into it's next form after the last one collapsed but it did not go anywhere.

Exactly this. The communists that are being fought against here have in fact become capitalists too. Subtle differences exist but we have all merged into the next form, together.

It's only the older folks who are dreaming about war. Crimea is at peace and has been for many years, it's nuts that people can't see that for what it is... The war, it just ended last night and yet they are still screaming for, guess what? War!!!

Pray our old age gift us with a peaceful society.

 

[rambo919]

US international failures and problematic interventionism does not give Russia and Putin a free pass. This is the problem in this thread. People rip the US apart for what they have done in places like Iraq and Libya, but they are in full Stevie Wonder-mode when Georgia and Ukraine have their sovereignty compromised by Russia.

The problem is people don't want to admit that demography is destiny.... Russia could not compromise these territories in this way if they were homogeneously separate.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

And he specifically mentioned Ukraine.

kinda hard not to given the breakaway regions are in Ukraine ... if he starts calling it Kievan Rus we should be more worried

US international failures and problematic interventionism does not give Russia and Putin a free pass

true

People rip the US apart for what they have done in places like Iraq and Libya

not often enough really, I mean most on this forum still think US has any legitimacy in Syria while Russia doesn't belong there when it is exactly the opposite in reality

but they are in full Stevie Wonder-mode when Georgia and Ukraine have their sovereignty compromised by Russia.

I don't know enough about the Georgia one to be honest, in the case of Ukraine there was a lot of meddling that resulted in euromaidan, every action Russia has taken since has been high risk, high reward, and very calculated

that alone is worthy of some praise, I think most of the Stevie Wonder-ness comes from the fact that Russia is giving the whole US lead meddling thing a big f-you ... though it is truly a pity for the people of Ukraine, those who never wanted a 2014 coup, who never wanted the country to be divided, they have no say in any of this which is indeed terrible

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

It's clear what is happening, Russia is supporting the breakup of previously Russian territories so that they can eventually be integrated back into a modern Russian empire.... this is realpolitik, Russia doing what is best for Russia.

@thestaggy is not pretending anything as far as I can see.... he is simply using the long view of history. How right or wrong it is for the large part is simply irrelevant, it's happening and nothing is going to stop it.

not convinced about the integration part, but everything else you said is on the money imo

 

[rambo919]

Exactly this. The communists that are being fought against here have in fact become capitalists too. Subtle differences exist but we have all merged into the next form, together.

No, not capitalists, they simply stripped out the useful parts of capitalism and stripped out the useless parts of communism.... and currently they are trying to morph into full communist technocracy. Lucky for us our local communists have not been able to do anything constructive so we are safe from that particular hell for now.

The goal remains the same:
the king and the queen are gone, each piece is the same, the difference between us is a part of the game.

It's only the older folks who are dreaming about war. Crimea is at peace and has been for many years, it's nuts that people can't see that for what it is... The war, it just ended last night and yet they are still screaming for, guess what? War!!!

Pray our old age gift us with a peaceful society.

War is what happens when the aggressor does not get what he wants, peace is when the victim stops resisting.

 

[rambo919]

not convinced about the integration part, but everything else you said is on the money imo

It's the only long term goal that makes sense, especially given the spirit that animates Russia.

And especially with Putin being known for harbouring massive resentment for the loss of the USSR, not in terms of ideology but in terms of prestige. For Russians prestige is everything and humiliation the worst thing to happen.

 

[s0lar]

Learn to read between the lines of the media spin.

Enlighten me. What exactly are you seeing between the lines?

 

[IndigoIdentity]

No, not capitalists, they simply stripped out the useful parts of capitalism and stripped out the useless parts of communism.... <snip>

We basically said the same thing just spelled differently. I never said that they have turned into capitalists, I said that they are now capitalists too.

The entire world is a a mix, one half is just a bit more socialist (or capitalist) than the other. And you're right, I guess that scares a lot of people too.

 

[rietrot]

Well the people in those regions have been fighting a far for independence from Ukraine.

Going to be amazing seeing what argument is used to try and spin this one. But but Russia military...