US Politics: Tariff Wars

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NarrowBandFtw said:
wow such skill, much wow in fact!

pilots flying in stealth planes at speeds and altitudes where nothing can hit them, dropping bombs on a country that did sweet f-all to them

/s-l-o-w c-l-a-p
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The speed and altitude has nothing to do with it. Stealth bombers are slow. Stealth is also not magic. It takes a lot of planning and signals intelligence.
 
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Whatever else one may think of what's going on in the Middle East this week, and will likely continue for years now...

Trump once again ignored the checks and balances, put in place over centuries between the branches of government there. Only the US congress has the right to declare war. For good reason. Though Trump and Co has dropped ample hints by referring to Trump as "Commander in chief" consistently, since the beginning of his 2nd term. Really that is a very specific and constrained title. One that automatically belongs to the sitting president only once war is declared. Until that point - By their system of checks and balances - The office of president is civilian. And it falls on their congress, alone, to judge whether it is ever appropriate to make the switch. Whether any US president remains a civilian official, dealing with civilian matters - Or becomes the wartime commander in chief of all their armed forces to execute military actions . Which still remain beholden to their constitution above all else. Constitution? Trump?

Trump and Co now want to insinuate that what they did was just an isolated strike and not a declaration of war; he effectively declared war. By his loathsome lonesome. Their congress... Abstention, as it seems it has been since he came back to office.

The point that I'm concerned with here, if it's not clear - Is that Trump has unilaterally assumed powers that their system did not grant him. And when all is said and done - The ultimate powers on planet Earth. How can there be any coming back from this?

Is there anybody here who truly holds the opinion ("bizarrely" [:rolleyes:] reminiscent of propaganda emanating from the US Whitehouse this year) that the US is not at war with Iran now? Forget word games. Actions speak louder than words. And, attacking government assets in another country using long range bombers, and very big bombs - Is an act of war. Finish...Klaar.

You don't need any kind of court to understand that Trump has been engaging in extreme crime since he came back into office. Really it started, in earnest at the end of his last term. Though he was already stretching the bounds of the definition severely before that. It could be argued that the point where their system broke, was when Mitch McConnell led the Republican party back from that, to fail to hold Trump to account as the conclusion of a more than well deserved impeachment, and what should by rights have ended in charges of high treason. And Mitch should go down in history as the single person most responsible for breaking their system. The truth of the matter is that Trump is merely the type of riffraff that their system was supposed to protect against. And Mitch was the weakest link.

But anyway... This is but the latest in a long list of de facto criminal excess during his second term. The list of instances the US courts have even partially allowed (singular aspects of much wider action), after the fact, is much shorter. Practically miniscule, in comparison. By any definition not even worth consideration. By this point... One extreme enough that "more extreme" becomes meaningless, I believe US Democracy is well and truly dead. There really is no further than this for Trump to go. What greater act of systemic insubordination could he possibly pull off in the US? There is literally no greater power he can assume. To me the surprise will be if somewhere in the tatters remaining of their system, they find the impulse or the means to deal with Trump - As the criminal he is.

And if they can't, then their system was always worthless. At least in as far as the merits claimed on the tin.
 
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T
The Trutherizer said:
Whatever else one may think of what's going on in the Middle East this week, and will likely continue for years now...

Trump once again ignored the checks and balances, put in place over centuries between the branches of government there. Only the US congress has the right to declare war. For good reason. Though Trump and Co has dropped ample hints by referring to Trump as "Commander in chief" consistently, since the beginning of his 2nd term. Really that is a very specific and constrained title. One that automatically belongs to the sitting president only once war is declared. Until that point - By their system of checks and balances - The office of president is civilian. And it falls on their congress, alone, to judge whether it is ever appropriate to make the switch. Whether any US president remains a civilian official, dealing with civilian matters - Or becomes the wartime commander in chief of all their armed forces to execute military actions . Which still remain beholden to their constitution above all else. Constitution? Trump?

Trump and Co now want to insinuate that what they did was just an isolated strike and not a declaration of war; he effectively declared war. By his loathsome lonesome. Their congress... Abstention, as it seems it has been since he came back to office.

The point that I'm concerned with here, if it's not clear - Is that Trump has unilaterally assumed powers that their system did not grant him. And when all is said and done - The ultimate powers on planet Earth. How can there be any coming back from this?

Is there anybody here who truly holds the opinion ("bizarrely" [:rolleyes:] reminiscent of propaganda emanating from the US Whitehouse this year) that the US is not at war with Iran now? Forget word games. Actions speak louder than words. And, attacking government assets in another country using long range bombers, and very big bombs - Is an act of war. Finish...Klaar.

You don't need any kind of court to understand that Trump has been engaging in extreme crime since he came back into office. Really it started, in earnest at the end of his last term. Though he was already stretching the bounds of the definition severely before that. It could be argued that the point where their system broke, was when Mitch McConnell led the Republican party back from that, to fail to hold Trump to account as the conclusion of a more than well deserved impeachment, and what should by rights have ended in charges of high treason. And Mitch should go down in history as the single person most responsible for breaking their system. The truth of the matter is that Trump is merely the type of riffraff that their system was supposed to protect against. And Mitch was the weakest link.

But anyway... This is but the latest in a long list of de facto criminal excess during his second term. The list of instances the US courts have even partially allowed (singular aspects of much wider action), after the fact, is much shorter. Practically miniscule, in comparison. By any definition not even worth consideration. By this point... One extreme enough that "more extreme" becomes meaningless, I believe US Democracy is well and truly dead. There really is no further than this for Trump to go. What greater act of systemic insubordination could he possibly pull off in the US? There is literally no greater power he can assume. To me the surprise will be if somewhere in the tatters remaining of their system, they find the impulse or the means to deal with Trump - As the criminal he is.

And if they can't, then their system was always worthless. At least in as far as the merits claimed on the tin.
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The US president is a powerful man. He's allowed to order strikes like these without going through congress. He only really needs congress approval to declare war and there are loop holes there too. Previous presidents have used this power. Both sides.
 
Sapphiron said:
The speed and altitude has nothing to do with it. Stealth bombers are slow. Stealth is also not magic. It takes a lot of planning and signals intelligence.
Click to expand...
up to mach 0.95 at a service ceiling of 50,000 feet, it's not going to be hit by older less sophisticated anti-air missiles, and that's if they can spot it in the first place ... apparently all Iran's air defenses are gone and Israelis are flying in their airspace "with impunity", so what exactly would be a concern for the B2's?

The Trutherizer said:
The point that I'm concerned with here, if it's not clear - Is that Trump has unilaterally assumed powers that their system did not grant him. And when all is said and done - The ultimate powers on planet Earth. How can there be any coming back from this?
Click to expand...
none of that is new, Obama and Biden both did the same, yes it is wrong and should not have been done by any of the 3 US presidents, but it is nothing new, this particular "Rubicon" was crossed long before Trump
 
R13... said:
T

The US president is a powerful man. He's allowed to order strikes like these without going through congress. He only really needs congress approval to declare war and there are loop holes there too. Previous presidents have used this power. Both sides.
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Yes, the so-called "Undeclared Wars". No formal declaration by congress. Though, except for in rare cases they at least had tacit approval by congress, after consultation and deliberation. Cases where strikes formed part of an organised effort approved by congress AUMFs in 2001 and 2002 (Authorization for Use of Military Force ), such as reprisal against Al Queda and the Taliban and a host of strikes in 19 countries falling under their "War on Terror", including several wars, post 9/11 ranging into the 2010 - Don't count. The US presidents effectively had a blank cheque for those. Signed by their congress. Even Trump used it to kill that Iranian general. Though it's worth noting that those actions had enough opposition that calls for reform to curb the practice have been widespread. Notably... From Trump and MAGA. But then... All fun and games while you criticise the opposition I guess.

You have to go back substantially, to find prominent cases like the Korean War, where there was no implicit approval. Even that was as an emergency measure to oppose the Soviet aided invasion of Southern Korea by the North, during the Cold War. Right or wrong though, it was one of the reasons for the War Powers Act to come into existence. Along with others like the Vietnam war (though again - there was at least consultation, even if no formal declaration). De facto unilateral military action by US Presidents have always been highly unpopular - In the US.

In this case... He just went and launched the bombers on a whim. Against a precedent of congress being against a direct attack on Iran, if not it's proxies. Against his much vaunted anti-war "mandate" even. With absolute zero consultation with congress. There should be questions about how the military even went along with it. It was just not in Trump's powers... No AUMF. So much so that now Trump is urgently trying to pass a war powers amendment after the fact. Ostensibly to prevent a protracted war.

In any case. It sets a dangerous precedent. And, if their congress does not reel him in, then they are playing with the end of their system.
 
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