Using liquid natural gas powerships for emergency power is a mistake - Chris Yelland

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
33,342
Solar and Wind are non-dispatchable and we'd still need to have some form of power during the peak periods.
 

TimTDP

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Messages
1,105
What I don't understand is the length on the contact.
Surely we should use the ships until we can build our own gas fired generators. That should cost less than renting generators, and we then own the infrastructure
 

Herr der Verboten

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
9,337
Dirty powership blunder – solar, wind, and batteries are cheaper and better

The government’s decision to include three liquid natural gas powerships from Karpowership SA for emergency power is a mistake which will cost South Africa dearly in the long run.

This is the view of energy expert Chris Yelland, who was speaking to the SABC about the procurement of emergency power by the Department of Energy.
Yelland said solar and wind power, in combination with battery storage, provide a better and more sustainable solution

He should have not skipped over plastic straws :rolleyes:
 

Johnatan56

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
28,853
Solar and Wind are non-dispatchable and we'd still need to have some form of power during the peak periods.
Stop with your constant BS. Wind picks up after sunset, so either peak power during sunset for summer, or just after in winter when wind picks up.
You should be building gas peakers for short-term anyways, but why hire it as a power ship when renewable is usually <1 year to build, and South Africa can get its own gas peakers at way lower cost that are also <2 years usually.
There is enough power to handle "peak" load if they add solar and wind, and a lot of the power issues can be sorted by allowing better feed back, since most large companies are already building their own small systems since they cannot handle Eskom's volatility in power delivery times.
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
33,342
Stop with your constant BS. Wind picks up after sunset, so either peak power during sunset for summer, or just after in winter when wind picks up.
You should be building gas peakers for short-term anyways, but why hire it as a power ship when renewable is usually <1 year to build, and South Africa can get its own gas peakers at way lower cost that are also <2 years usually.
There is enough power to handle "peak" load if they add solar and wind, and a lot of the power issues can be sorted by allowing better feed back, since most large companies are already building their own small systems since they cannot handle Eskom's volatility in power delivery times.
Really wind picks up in the evening? Weird how you seem to know the weather and still have it wrong

1619002790758.png

This is Eskoms renewables, Wind seems to mostly be inconsistent and not easily measurable on when peaks are, some have been during the day, so seem to be at night. But looking at this even at it's peak wind just went over 2GW once in the last month and that was at 5pm on the 10 of April, but 10pm it had almost halved. So how do you know the wind picks up in the evenings and we then can supplement it with the sun during? From this graph alone you can see how erratic renewables are.
 

Johnatan56

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
28,853
Really wind picks up in the evening? Weird how you seem to know the weather and still have it wrong

View attachment 1056163

This is Eskoms renewables, Wind seems to mostly be inconsistent and not easily measurable on when peaks are, some have been during the day, so seem to be at night. But looking at this even at it's peak wind just went over 2GW once in the last month and that was at 5pm on the 10 of April, but 10pm it had almost halved. So how do you know the wind picks up in the evenings and we then can supplement it with the sun during? From this graph alone you can see how erratic renewables are.
Did you notice how the blue peak is just after the green for pretty much all of those?
What is the average power consumption at 10pm?
I'm taking this from the UK's power grid, note that Europe weather has been cold and rainy recently, coming out of winter.
1619003177422.png

Did you notice that at 10pm the demand is quite a bit lower than at peak time? Now go inform yourself properly instead of rehashing the same thing that's been disproven again and again so many times, yet just cause it's a new thread you try and have it be the only (wrong) opinion on the thread, trying to mislead people as usual.
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
33,342
Did you notice how the blue peak is just after the green for pretty much all of those?
What is the average power consumption at 10pm?
I'm taking this from the UK's power grid, note that Europe weather has been cold and rainy recently, coming out of winter.
View attachment 1056171

Did you notice that at 10pm the demand is quite a bit lower than at peak time? Now go inform yourself properly instead of rehashing the same thing that's been disproven again and again so many times, yet just cause it's a new thread you try and have it be the only (wrong) opinion on the thread, trying to mislead people as usual.
Except for one thing, at the peak periods of time, wind drops as well, also the peak was only 2GW in an entire month this is with 2.6GW installed. The above graph illustrates the problems with renewables, it's inconsistent some days you can almost hit your peak, but average you're not going to hit it.
Renewables are great to supplement a grid, but they cannot run them during peaks, hence why even places like the UK uses CCTGs
1619003506403.png
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
33,342
Kindly explain what you mean with "Solar and Wind are non-dispatchable"?
Non-dispatchable is power that cannot be dispatched on demand, as its not 100% guaranteed you're going to get 2GW all the time.
 

Johnatan56

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
28,853
it's inconsistent some days you can almost hit your peak, but average you're not going to hit it.
hence why even places like the UK uses CCTGs
You do realize that's exactly what I said to do, right? You run a gas peaker with wind, and a ccgt with solar. Both wind and solar are predictable, and the largest costs for gas peakers and ccgt is the fuel, price comes way down combining those and you run those non-renewable solutions for very little amounts of time (and note that usually ccgt and gas peakers can run at higher outputs for short bursts as well).

You would still build a lot of solar and wind, and a vast majority of the time solar and wind will cover it. You're basically just repeating what I am saying.
Non-dispatchable is power that cannot be dispatched on demand, as its not 100% guaranteed you're going to get 2GW all the time.
Yes, but it's completely predictable. The dispatch-able thing seems to be you trying to say the non-reliable myth but sounding like you know more than you do.
 

system32

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
4,466
Solar and Wind are non-dispatchable and we'd still need to have some form of power during the peak periods.
You mis-read the headline:
"Dirty powership blunder – solar, wind, and batteries are cheaper and better"

"AND batteries" cheaper than powership.
 

supersunbird

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2005
Messages
55,747
Did you notice how the blue peak is just after the green for pretty much all of those?
What is the average power consumption at 10pm?
I'm taking this from the UK's power grid, note that Europe weather has been cold and rainy recently, coming out of winter.
View attachment 1056171

Did you notice that at 10pm the demand is quite a bit lower than at peak time? Now go inform yourself properly instead of rehashing the same thing that's been disproven again and again so many times, yet just cause it's a new thread you try and have it be the only (wrong) opinion on the thread, trying to mislead people as usual.

From what I can see as a noob, the blue is when there isn't green, but the green looks way more consistent than the blue.
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
33,342
You mis-read the headline:
"Dirty powership blunder – solar, wind, and batteries are cheaper and better"

"AND batteries" cheaper than powership.
The batteries needed for that amount of power would be massively expensive. What would work is having solar being able to pump water up for peaks in the evening, perhaps getting wind to do the same or something. Pity we don't have any geothermal.
You do realize that's exactly what I said to do, right? You run a gas peaker with wind, and a ccgt with solar. Both wind and solar are predictable, and the largest costs for gas peakers and ccgt is the fuel, price comes way down combining those and you run those non-renewable solutions for very little amounts of time (and note that usually ccgt and gas peakers can run at higher outputs for short bursts as well).

You would still build a lot of solar and wind, and a vast majority of the time solar and wind will cover it. You're basically just repeating what I am saying.

Yes, but it's completely predictable. The dispatch-able thing seems to be you trying to say the non-reliable myth but sounding like you know more than you do.
Do you not see how the blue goes all over the place? That isn't predictable and it's not a myth the power companies call Wind and Solar as non-dispatchable power because it's erratic.
 

Gazg

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
653
Come on guys........obviously the kickback wasn't big enough in the solar, wind or battery route.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Swa

ab-user

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,362
Hopefully somebody will take the M out of RMIPPPP as this Turkish non-delight is really just exporting (expropriating) the last bit of wealth the country has
 

Cosmik Debris

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
6,427
Stop with your constant BS. Wind picks up after sunset, so either peak power during sunset for summer, or just after in winter when wind picks up.
You should be building gas peakers for short-term anyways, but why hire it as a power ship when renewable is usually <1 year to build, and South Africa can get its own gas peakers at way lower cost that are also <2 years usually.
There is enough power to handle "peak" load if they add solar and wind, and a lot of the power issues can be sorted by allowing better feed back, since most large companies are already building their own small systems since they cannot handle Eskom's volatility in power delivery times.

Depends where you are in SA. In Pretoria there is very little wind after sunset. In the Karoo, where wind farms are being constructed, the wind is strongest in the afternoon due to hot air rising and cool air moving in to take its place. On the West Coast the wind can rage for weeks.
 
Top