Using liquid natural gas powerships for emergency power is a mistake - Chris Yelland

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
103,866
Ultimately we need reliable Nuclear Power to bring us into the 21st Century.
But we all know that this shipwreck of a government could never bring that about.
Too bad... we will remain crippled until then.
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
34,276
Ultimately we need reliable Nuclear Power to bring us into the 21st Century.
But we all know that this shipwreck of a government could never bring that about.
Too bad... we will remain crippled until then.
The issue is the world got scared by nuclear power and has decided it wants wind and solar, as that is the clean solution sigh.
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
103,866
The issue is the world got scared by nuclear power and has decided it wants wind and solar, as that is the clean solution sigh.
Not really though, the Scientific fraternity still favours Nuclear, and they have a lot of influence.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
28,476
1) It's called the Transmission grid and it carries power cross country. How else does HV power get from where it is generated to where it needs to go? Conceptually this is no different to what would be needed to add an IPP to the grid.
That's a gross oversimplification. Power generation is localised. You can't just plug in a generator at one end of the country and transmit power to the other end as that is not what transmission grids do and the losses would be too great. You are also transmitting power in the opposite direction as designed.

Again, you cannot simply scale up lower end instances of the solution in what would be required to replace the 1200MW offered by the powerships. It simply does not work that way.
The part you're missing is that it's modular where these ships are not. You can construct it at any point where needed. It's also not replacing the ships because they're not operating.

I bring up time because it is a factor that has to be considered. Regardless of the history with IPP's you need to realise what adding 1200MW to the grid now (or as close to now as possible) represents in terms of preventing further instances of loadshedding and/or allowing further plant to be taken down for much-needed maintenance to be conducted. The implications of which will have a positive economic and power security impact.

Just a reminder as well. What you are proposing is already underway albeit at a smaller scale and has been for some time: https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/a...ivate-investment-in-the-technology-2020-11-19 . Note that is being described as a medium term solution.
IPPs can be connected right now. Time is not a factor and only a signature is needed. Also funny you refer to medium term solution when powerships are supposed to be a short to medium term solution.

Of course it has been used. But only in areas where the grid can cope. The ports of Richards Bay, Ngqura and Saldanha Bay are end users, not suppliers of electricity. The distribution network will have to be upgraded. Just as it would need to be if you put a 2 MW generator in your back yard to supply the factory in the next suburb. You're an end user, not a supplier.

It's like trying to fill a dam by connecting your home plumbing to a huge pump.
Yeah I'm referring to IPPs. They can be connected and constructed anywhere where the grid can handle.

Ultimately we need reliable Nuclear Power to bring us into the 21st Century.
But we all know that this shipwreck of a government could never bring that about.
Too bad... we will remain crippled until then.
Not this again. The world has tried nuclear and found it is not what it's cracked up to be.
 

Gordon_R

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
17,317
That's a gross oversimplification. Power generation is localised. You can't just plug in a generator at one end of the country and transmit power to the other end as that is not what transmission grids do and the losses would be too great. You are also transmitting power in the opposite direction as designed.


The part you're missing is that it's modular where these ships are not. You can construct it at any point where needed. It's also not replacing the ships because they're not operating.


IPPs can be connected right now. Time is not a factor and only a signature is needed. Also funny you refer to medium term solution when powerships are supposed to be short to medium term solution.


Yeah I'm referring to IPPs. They can be connected and constructed anywhere where the grid can handle.


Not this again. The world has tried nuclear and found it is not what it's cracked up to be.

I don't know if you are making this **** up!? In one place you imply that electricity can only flow in one direction, in another you say IPPs can be constructed anywhere.

The amount of electricity generated by the powerships is way below what the grid can handle at present. The proposed locations are major infrastructure coastal areas, while coal-fired generation is mostly in Mpumalanga, so the new setup will be an improvement over the existing one.
 

TheChamp

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
38,060
Man, I admire everyone of you who still has the energy to entertain the amount of rubbish being spewed here.
 

Iwojima

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
3,406
I don't know if you are making this **** up!? In one place you imply that electricity can only flow in one direction, in another you say IPPs can be constructed anywhere.

The amount of electricity generated by the powerships is way below what the grid can handle at present. The proposed locations are major infrastructure coastal areas, while coal-fired generation is mostly in Mpumalanga, so the new setup will be an improvement over the existing one.
The losses argument slayed me, like that isnt a factor in all generation and transmission and the reason why you step down voltage close to the point of delivery.
 

TheChamp

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
38,060
Do go on. What rubbish are you referring to?
Swa and Cosmik? Does what they are saying make sense to you? I know to some people writing huge wall of text seems to imply some in depth knowledge but one does not need to be an expert to see that there's a load of rubbish in there, what's the nonsense about plugging a generator in one end of the country and transmitting power in the opposite direction? What does it mean?
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
34,276
The losses argument slayed me, like that isnt a factor in all generation and transmission and the reason why you step down voltage close to the point of delivery.
Or the reason why they have step up substations along the way, then the distribution ones and all the others along the away.
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
34,276
Swa and Cosmik? Does what they are saying make sense to you? I know to some people writing huge wall of text seems to imply some in depth knowledge but one does not need to be an expert to see that there's a load of rubbish in there, what's the nonsense about plugging a generator in one end of the country and transmitting power in the opposite direction? What does it mean?
I think he's referring to plugging in the power ships and then sending the power up the country.
Forgetting there are substations along the way, I mean currently most power plants are in Mpumalanga and Limpopo with 1200MW coming from Moz. I mean how does he think that gets around?
 

richjdavies

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
1,386
Its all very strange this thread.

Little bit of google is very dangerous.
Wires are not one way, and nor are transformers. The wire doesn't care where it is used and electricity is fungible. The fact that most is generated up North is because the coal is there... Its easy to transport the power. A more balance geography will HELP not hinder.

Powerships biggest problem will be getting the fuel in and noise and pollution out. The electricity is the EASY part.
 

Iwojima

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
3,406
The issue is the world got scared by nuclear power and has decided it wants wind and solar, as that is the clean solution sigh.
Sadly the events of 3-mile Island, Chernobyl and most recently Fukushima have seen to that. All of which had a component of poor design and incompetence that resulted in disaster.

Which is quite sad considering that there are far more efficient and safer designs for reactors than the "nuclear submarine derived" variety in use.

Swa and Cosmik? Does what they are saying make sense to you? I know to some people writing huge wall of text seems to imply some in depth knowledge but one does not need to be an expert to see that there's a load of rubbish in there, what's the nonsense about plugging a generator in one end of the country and transmitting power in the opposite direction? What does it mean?
Rubbish no. Fundamental misinterpretation/misunderstanding of how a power grid works, sure.

The only rubbish would be that the fundamental opposition to the idea is often based on 1) That it came from government and 2) The idea that renewables are always better, always...in every situation.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
28,476
I don't know if you are making this **** up!? In one place you imply that electricity can only flow in one direction, in another you say IPPs can be constructed anywhere.

The amount of electricity generated by the powerships is way below what the grid can handle at present. The proposed locations are major infrastructure coastal areas, while coal-fired generation is mostly in Mpumalanga, so the new setup will be an improvement over the existing one.
It's not my fault if you don't understand the basics. The transmission grid is designed to carry power in one direction. IPPs can be constructed anywhere WHERE NEEDED. They're not limited to docking in a harbour.

The losses argument slayed me, like that isnt a factor in all generation and transmission and the reason why you step down voltage close to the point of delivery.
Only because you don't understand how the grid works. You're looking at it as one big monster that can carry power from anywhere to anywhere. That's not how it's designed. Most of the power you use come from inland generators that are a few hundred km's away at most. Just because one part at one end is connected to another at an opposite end does not mean power flows between those points.

Swa and Cosmik? Does what they are saying make sense to you? I know to some people writing huge wall of text seems to imply some in depth knowledge but one does not need to be an expert to see that there's a load of rubbish in there, what's the nonsense about plugging a generator in one end of the country and transmitting power in the opposite direction? What does it mean?
Let me explain it like this. You have a power station in the Freestate. You send that power to KZN and Gauteng. Most of that power does not go to CT and for that you have one nearer to the Karoo. Now you dock what is a generator in a coastal city. Apart from the problems with this itself you expect this power to go everywhere across the country even at opposite ends and from an area where power is stepped down and not up.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
28,476
Its all very strange this thread.

Little bit of google is very dangerous.
Wires are not one way, and nor are transformers. The wire doesn't care where it is used and electricity is fungible. The fact that most is generated up North is because the coal is there... Its easy to transport the power. A more balance geography will HELP not hinder.

Powerships biggest problem will be getting the fuel in and noise and pollution out. The electricity is the EASY part.
You think it's so easy to do then go give Eskom some help. Thousands of experts have worked on designing our grid to carry power in the most efficient way over decades. Now you think it's as easy as plugging in some generators at arbitrary points and it gets around to everywhere without some modifications. Sheesh man, you are clearly the Google expert here with no real world experience.
 

TheChamp

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
38,060
You think it's so easy to do then go give Eskom some help. Thousands of experts have worked on designing our grid to carry power in the most efficient way over decades. Now you think it's as easy as plugging in some generators at arbitrary points and it gets around to everywhere without some modifications. Sheesh man, you are clearly the Google expert here with no real world experience.
Has Eskom asked for help with this dilemma?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Swa

itareanlnotani

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
3,886
Eskom knows where their infrastructure is.

They have 2 or 3 main routes up and down the entire country - look at the UHV and HV DC lines that carry power around.

You'll have step up transformers for grid to UHV / HV DC voltages for longer distance transmission which will then ship the electricity off to where its needed and be stepped down again for local transmission

(DC transmission is more efficient - i.e. less losses than AC transmission over distance.)

Note that most IPP's are located close to transmission infrastructure, funny that, almost as if the infrastructure team at Eskom planned it that way.


1619110171250.png
 

Lupus

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
34,276
It's not my fault if you don't understand the basics. The transmission grid is designed to carry power in one direction. IPPs can be constructed anywhere WHERE NEEDED. They're not limited to docking in a harbour.


Only because you don't understand how the grid works. You're looking at it as one big monster that can carry power from anywhere to anywhere. That's not how it's designed. Most of the power you use come from inland generators that are a few hundred km's away at most. Just because one part at one end is connected to another at an opposite end does not mean power flows between those points.


Let me explain it like this. You have a power station in the Freestate. You send that power to KZN and Gauteng. Most of that power does not go to CT and for that you have one nearer to the Karoo. Now you dock what is a generator in a coastal city. Apart from the problems with this itself you expect this power to go everywhere across the country even at opposite ends and from an area where power is stepped down and not up.
You know IPP stands for Independent Power Provider. Which the power ships are, you also can't build a power station anywhere, neither can a solar, wind, Hydro be built anywhere.
Also that's not how the transmission grid works, also most of the power for the entire country comes from the North.
This would include Cape Towns power. Same as Koeberg assists the grid from the Cape. The power can go both ways.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
28,476
You know IPP stands for Independent Power Provider. Which the power ships are, you also can't build a power station anywhere, neither can a solar, wind, Hydro be built anywhere.
Also that's not how the transmission grid works, also most of the power for the entire country comes from the North.
This would include Cape Towns power. Same as Koeberg assists the grid from the Cape. The power can go both ways.
Just because they are an IPP does not make them suitable or on the same level. The grid is not designed to carry power both ways. From your own admission these are end users of power where it's stepped down and not up.
 
Top