Using liquid natural gas powerships for emergency power is a mistake - Chris Yelland

Swa

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All the OCTGs that are used to assist during high load are already along the coasts, if those are there that means the infrastructure is already there to send it up.
Also CPT had coal stations a long time ago as well.
Those are used for emergency only. They aren't meant to supply power permanently. My guess is most of that power is also used locally rather than transmitted to ease load on other stations.
 

Lupus

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The capacity you can plug in at the end user is limited due to the transformers and lines designed to carry the maximum end user requirement x 15 safety factor.
It's already there, 3GW of OCTGs exist, IPPs scattered around plug in, various hydroelectric dams plug in. The infrastructure already exists, it's not like they have to build it.
How do you think they use the OCTGs to boost the grid?
 

Lupus

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Those are used for emergency only. They aren't meant to supply power permanently.
Wtf!! Seriously? What do you think the infrastructure for it just disappears when the peakers aren't used? What do you think it's separate from the grid?
Also they were planning to switch those to CCTGs which are too run permanently.
 

Cosmik Debris

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Well depends on where the low voltage sub station is, electricity likes to go from high to low. So for long distances you need to boost it with step up sub stations.

Electricity doesn't like going anywhere except to earth. It's generated in the powers stations and stepped up at the power station to many thousands of volts for easy long range transmission (Thinner conductors required over long distance). When it gets closer to the end user it's stepped down in economical stages as those thinner wires on pylons cost a fortune. At the end user you get 380 or 220 V depending on commercial or domestic. Where are you going to plug the powership in without upgrading the distribution network?
 

Swa

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Wtf!! Seriously? What do you think the infrastructure for it just disappears when the peakers aren't used? What do you think it's separate from the grid?
Also they were planning to switch those to CCTGs which are too run permanently.
Just because you can do something on a temporary basis doesn't mean you can do it permanently. Those are also retrofitted gas turbines that run on diesel. Why didn't they do it then? Perhaps because it's not so easy and would need a major infrastructure upgrade? Also see the rest of my comment.
 

Cosmik Debris

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All the OCTGs that are used to assist during high load are already along the coasts, if those are there that means the infrastructure is already there to send it up.
Also CPT had coal stations a long time ago as well.

All infrastructure for Cape Town's Athlone, Paarden island and Table bay power stations as well as the power stations are long gone. The only high capacity distribution lines near the coast serve Koeberg. And they are at capacity x 1.5 safety factor. All the rest are end user suppliers.
 
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Cosmik Debris

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It's already there, 3GW of OCTGs exist, IPPs scattered around plug in, various hydroelectric dams plug in. The infrastructure already exists, it's not like they have to build it.
How do you think they use the OCTGs to boost the grid?

Now you want to add more transmission capacity without upgrading it?
 

Lupus

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Just because you can do something on a temporary basis doesn't mean you can do it permanently. Those are also retrofitted gas turbines that run on diesel. Why didn't they do it then? Perhaps because it's not so easy and would need a major infrastructure upgrade? Also see the rest of my comment.
Why didn't they build more power stations? Why didn't they maintain the existing ones? Why didn't they... We know why. They used the money for other things.
 

Cosmik Debris

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All the OCTGs that are used to assist during high load are already along the coasts, if those are there that means the infrastructure is already there to send it up.
Also CPT had coal stations a long time ago as well.

It is. But that's not where they plan to plug the powerships in.
 

Cosmik Debris

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So how does transmission happen currently without these powerships?

Power generation with a single exception, Koeberg, is all inland in Mpumalanga. Therefore the distribution infrastructure is heavy in Mpumalanga and gets lighter as it approaches the coast. Plugging a power ship in at the coast is like plugging a big generator into a home in Cape Town to power a factory in Gauteng. Ain't gonna work without a very expensive distribution reversal upgrade.
 

Lupus

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Power generation with a single exception, Koeberg, is all inland in Mpumalanga. Therefore the distribution infrastructure is heavy in Mpumalanga and gets lighter as it approaches the coast. Plugging a power ship in at the coast is like plugging a big generator into a home in Cape Town to power a factory in Gauteng. Ain't gonna work without a very expensive distribution reversal upgrade.
I'll ask again, what about all the OCTGs along the coast, both IPP and Eskoms. What about the Hydro electric dams that aren't up north?
Do they use magic? What about the renewables that aren't north?
 

richjdavies

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Yes they use magic, case closed... Flip this is silly arguments guys. If its put in an area that is capable of consuming 100MW, then it will.also handle generating 100MW. Case closed no magic required.

You all just got out of the wrong side of bed didnt you?!
 

Cosmik Debris

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I'll ask again, what about all the OCTGs along the coast, both IPP and Eskoms. What about the Hydro electric dams that aren't up north?
Do they use magic? What about the renewables that aren't north?

Those are connected with installed conductors to take their capacity. What installed distribution capacity for the powerships is in the ports they plan to place them in? Will pylons need to be erected?
 

Gordon_R

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All infrastructure for Cape Town's Athlone, Paarden island and Table bay power stations as well as the power stations are long gone. The only high capacity distribution lines near the coast serve Koeberg. And they are at capacity x 1.5 safety factor. All the rest are end user suppliers.

There's no point in arguing with your ignorance, but for those in the thread with a genuine interest, there are multiple sources of generation and transmission in the Cape Metropole, in addition to Koeberg:
Ankerlig OCGT 1300MW in Atlantis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankerlig_Power_Station
Both Steenbras and Palmiet pumped storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmiet_Pumped_Storage_Scheme
Acacia OCGT in Goodwood (1976).

All of these are linked by multiple interconnected HV lines and switching stations. Current can flow in both directions, depending on demand and overnight surplus power.
 

The Trutherizer

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Solar and Wind are non-dispatchable and we'd still need to have some form of power during the peak periods.
Good luck dispatching the gas ships somewhere else in a few decades when solar/wind + storage is cheaper than the cost of transmission. They signed a multi-decade contract if I'm not mistaken.
So yeah. All this talk is moot. SA is just like that.
 

Swa

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There's no point in arguing with your ignorance, but for those in the thread with a genuine interest, there are multiple sources of generation and transmission in the Cape Metropole, in addition to Koeberg:
Ankerlig OCGT 1300MW in Atlantis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankerlig_Power_Station
Both Steenbras and Palmiet pumped storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmiet_Pumped_Storage_Scheme
Acacia OCGT in Goodwood (1976).

All of these are linked by multiple interconnected HV lines and switching stations. Current can flow in both directions, depending on demand and overnight surplus power.
Nobody said there can't be but they all have their own dedicated distribution. Nothing where these ships will be. I also only still see temporary generation apart from Koeberg.

But as I said I don't care about this country any more. The dimwits in power will do what they want and then everyone on here will go well why couldn't Eskom foresee it wasn't as simple as just plugging in some generation when parts of the grid collapse.
 

Cosmik Debris

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There's no point in arguing with your ignorance, but for those in the thread with a genuine interest, there are multiple sources of generation and transmission in the Cape Metropole, in addition to Koeberg:
Ankerlig OCGT 1300MW in Atlantis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankerlig_Power_Station
Both Steenbras and Palmiet pumped storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmiet_Pumped_Storage_Scheme
Acacia OCGT in Goodwood (1976).

All of these are linked by multiple interconnected HV lines and switching stations. Current can flow in both directions, depending on demand and overnight surplus power.

I know about the OCGT's at Atlantis and the pumped storage at Palmiet. How do you propose plugging the powerships in there?

And I thought I was on ignore from you. You couldn't resist trying to show me up hey? What does a chemical engineer (You never stated whether you graduated either) know about electrical reticulation?

No need to get nasty just because I had a chemical engineer friend at SASOL that confirmed my statement that crude oil from different regions differs wildly and the hardware to refine it would be specific to it's volatility and toxicity. And that I proved crude is exported from SA by showing Tina Joemat-Petterson exported it under cost.
 

Oldfut

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Yes they use magic, case closed... Flip this is silly arguments guys. If its put in an area that is capable of consuming 100MW, then it will.also handle generating 100MW. Case closed no magic required.

You all just got out of the wrong side of bed didnt you?!
In my little experience this is the key. Assuming cable size etc is ok, once the load factors have been determined it can work fine, well up to a point. With sophisticated grid connections it may be possible to (automatically?) adjust the load factors to meet power demand if say, it drops at night and demand is further from the generation source, up to a point. If not, power output could be reduced; again, up to a point as the real wizardry (for me) is that reciprocating generators have to stay at constant revolutions to match grid frequency (50Hz?). Very tricky (to me) to keep constant rpm but reduce power output seamlessly. Again, my little experience is that this can only be done to maybe 60% of maximum power, not less and the generator becomes less fuel efficient (obviously). I would guess you do not want to turn the generators off unless it is for planned (or unplanned (aka breakdowns) ha ha) maintenance as re-starting is (or was) not just at the press of a button. Quite big machines these (tiny compared to power stations though).
 

Iwojima

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Good luck dispatching the gas ships somewhere else in a few decades when solar/wind + storage is cheaper than the cost of transmission. They signed a multi-decade contract if I'm not mistaken.
So yeah. All this talk is moot. SA is just like that.
Literally nobody in this thread is arguing that the length of the contract isn't suspiciously long or that it should take 20 years for the 1200MW (that the powerships will provide) to be generated elsewhere.
 

TheChamp

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Nobody said there can't be but they all have their own dedicated distribution. Nothing where these ships will be. I also only still see temporary generation apart from Koeberg.

But as I said I don't care about this country any more. The dimwits in power will do what they want and then everyone on here will go well why couldn't Eskom foresee it wasn't as simple as just plugging in some generation when parts of the grid collapse.
I think Eskom, with all their incompetence, perceived or real, are still way more knowledgeable about their infrastructure that you will ever be.
 
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