Vegetarian diet associated with worse health: study

[Sherbang]

Tunnel vision thinking....



My apologies, I thought people would understand my view but I see I need to explain in more detail.

Cats eat meat. You have to slaughter animals so your cat can eat. Your cat also kills many local indigenous animals (in fact, the average cat will kill several animals every day). So if you are so against the slaughtering of animals. Why own an animal thats not indigenous to the area, why slaughter animals to keep a mass murdering exotic animal alive?

Vegetarians argue that you dont need meat to survive. Well Im arguing that you dont need a cat to survive either. If there is a moral issue with slaughtering animals then a cat would be a hypocritical animal to own.

Am I more clear now?

Perfectly clear. So I suppose you also think it's OK for people who own cats to rape other people because afterall, cats don't ask for consent so owning a cat and not being a rapist makes you hypocritical, right? Your cat rapes so you should too!

The point is, as humans, we have choice. We can choose to be non-violent and compassionate towards other creatures.
We are able to make decisions and choices based on ethics and morality.
We are able to overcome our animal nature if we choose.

That's one of the things that makes us different from animals, is that we can choose to act from a place of compassion.
Cat's don't have that choice. Unlike us, they are pure carnivores, are unable to survive without meat and don't have the ability to reason about ethics and morality. Your argument is null and void.

 

[BCO]

I hope people who dont eat meat out of ethical reasons also dont own a cat or a dog. Cause you dont need a cat.

I have adopted two dogs that would have been euthanised at the SPCA.

 

[BCO]

The morality of killing animals is the #1 reason I have experienced with vegetarians and vegans for not eating meat. Most of these people are animal lovers (animal lovers tend to own animals) and while well meaning, have this disneyfication of how the circle of life works. Well, at least that is my experience (Its anecdotal so results may vary).

Lets take BCO. Our resident greens expert BCO... do you own a cat or a dog or both?

Just answered. I like to think I have adopted two companion animals. I don't "own" them.

*edit* I should add that I do actually have an issue with breeding animals for pets (with the possible exclusion of rare exotic animals for the sake of biodiversity as we have discussed before). Adoption is a different proposition to supporting an industry that commoditises the lives of others.

 

[googoodoll]

Cats eat meat. You have to slaughter animals so your cat can eat. Your cat also kills many local indigenous animals (in fact, the average cat will kill several animals every day). So if you are so against the slaughtering of animals. Why own an animal thats not indigenous to the area, why slaughter animals to keep a mass murdering exotic animal alive?

Called the balance of nature. The cat doesn't breed mice in disgusting conditions to kill them for dinner...

 

[w1z4rd]

Perfectly clear. So I suppose you also think it's OK for people who own cats to rape other people because afterall, cats don't ask for consent so owning a cat and not being a rapist makes you hypocritical, right? You're cat rapes so you should too!

The words .... "what the ****?" came to my mind... seriously dude. What the ****? You are totally missing my point....

The point is, as humans, we have choice. We can choose to be non-violent and compassionate towards other creatures.
We are able to make decisions and choices based on ethics and morality.
We are able to overcome our animal nature if we choose.

We are animals, we can choose not to have cats.

That's one of the things that makes us different from animals, is that we can choose to act from a place of compassion.

If you think compassion is just a human emotion then Im not the right person to argue with you. Humans are animals. Many animals show compassion
[video=youtube;n4JBeUV6uvk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4JBeUV6uvk[/video]

Cat's don't have that choice. Unlike us, they are pure carnivores, are unable to survive without meat and don't have the ability to reason about ethics and morality. Your argument is null and void.

No, you are not getting my point. I mean, you have missed some of my points badly in the past, but this time you could drive an aircraft carrier in between your argument and mine. Theyre not even in the same zip code. Who the **** is arguing about cat morality now but you?

My argument is vegetarians do not need to own cats to survive. They dont. They can survive perfectly well without them. So why keep buying cats? Why not stop buying cats so you dont have to kill animals for them? The argument here is about the vegetarians morality here. Not the cats. If vegetarians kept less cats as pets, then less animals would get slaughtered.

 

[Unhappy438]

Perfectly clear. So I suppose you also think it's OK for people who own cats to rape other people because afterall, cats don't ask for consent so owning a cat and not being a rapist makes you hypocritical, right? Your cat rapes so you should too!

The point is, as humans, we have choice. We can choose to be non-violent and compassionate towards other creatures.
We are able to make decisions and choices based on ethics and morality.
We are able to overcome our animal nature if we choose.

That's one of the things that makes us different from animals, is that we can choose to act from a place of compassion.
Cat's don't have that choice. Unlike us, they are pure carnivores, are unable to survive without meat and don't have the ability to reason about ethics and morality. Your argument is null and void.

Although i don't agree that his argument represents the majority of vegetarians, you're missing it.

 

[w1z4rd]

Just answered. I like to think I have adopted two companion animals. I don't "own" them.

Legally you own them and are responsible for them. You cant tell a judge if they bite someone else that theyre not yours.

*edit* I should add that I do actually have an issue with breeding animals for pets (with the possible exclusion of rare exotic animals for the sake of biodiversity as we have discussed before). Adoption is a different proposition to supporting an industry that commoditises the lives of others.

So basically you are against pet ownership unless its to keep endangered species alive? (there is a "?" there, Im not putting arguments into your mouth, Im trying to understand your view) So in your ideal world, no one should own a pet (except for conservation requirements)? Cause without breeding animals, you cant have pets?... Trying to understand this view.

Called the balance of nature. The cat doesn't breed mice in disgusting conditions to kill them for dinner...

My cat eats Whiskers, not sure how you feed yours. Im pretty sure the conditions of the cats food are the same as human food. Whiskers doesnt grow itself

 

[cguy]

The morality of killing animals is the #1 reason I have experienced with vegetarians and vegans for not eating meat. Most of these people are animal lovers (animal lovers tend to own animals) and while well meaning, have this disneyfication of how the circle of life works. Well, at least that is my experience (Its anecdotal so results may vary).

Lets take BCO. Our resident greens expert BCO... do you own a cat or a dog or both?

I have 2 dogs, both fed on a vegan diet, both over 10 years old, healthy and happy - this isn't anything new. They're both from shelters.

Cats tend to be a different story as obligate carnivores, so personally, I don't own any. I know a few vegans that have cats willing to eat the vegan cat food products, but not all have been successful, and have had to resort to feeding their cats a diet containing meat. There is a qualitative difference between buying a cat from a breeder, or breeding your own cats as pets, and taking an animal from a shelter. The shelter animal already exists - short of killing it, one has to feed it. Since the former option is usually out of the question for a vegetarian or vegan, they will choose to feed it as long as there is an industry for which its food is a byproduct of - not that this doesn't decrease the price of meat marginally, thus increasing the supply somewhat, but sometimes veganism/vegetarianism is just a best-effort (in this case - won't kill/harm to prevent killing/harm) philosophy - not everyone is a staunch utilitarian. Personally, I choose to donate to shelters and organizations that trap and neuter feral cats, and use my home resources to look after dogs.

 

[w1z4rd]

I have 2 dogs, both fed on a vegan diet, both over 10 years old, healthy and happy - this isn't anything new. They're both from shelters.

Cats tend to be a different story as obligate carnivores, so personally, I don't own any. I know a few vegans that have cats willing to eat the vegan cat food products, but not all have been successful, and have had to resort to feeding their cats a diet containing meat. There is a qualitative difference between buying a cat from a breeder, or breeding your own cats as pets, and taking an animal from a shelter. The shelter animal already exists - short of killing it, one has to feed it. Since the former option is usually out of the question for a vegetarian or vegan, they will choose to feed it as long as there is an industry for which it is a byproduct of - not that this doesn't decrease the price of meat marginally, thus increasing the supply somewhat, but sometimes veganism/vegetarianism is just a best-effort (in this case - won't kill/harm to prevent killing/harm) philosophy - not everyone is a staunch utilitarian. Personally, I choose to donate to shelters and organizations that trap and neuter feral cats, and use my home resources to look after dogs.

Well, let it not be said, you dont walk the walk

I had to google vegetarian cats and dogs... apprently PETA approve: http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/vegetarian-cats-dogs/ lol

Vets have a different view on the cats:

Vegetarian Dog and Cat Food Warnings

Lew Olson, PhD, author of Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs, makes this analogy: “Trying to feed a cat a vegan diet would be like me feeding my horses meat. You’re taking a whole species of animal and trying to force it to eat something that it isn’t designed to handle.”


“For cats, it’s really inappropriate. It goes against their physiology and isn’t something I would recommend at all," says Cailin Heinze, VMD, a board-certified veterinary nutritionist and assistant professor of nutrition at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine.

"For dogs, certainly vegetarian and vegan diets can be done, but they need to be done very, very carefully. There is a lot of room for error, and these diets probably are not as appropriate as diets that contain at least some animal protein," Heinze says.

http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats

Well I learnt something new.

 

[Sherbang]

My argument is vegetarians do not need to own cats to survive. They dont. They can survive perfectly well without them. So why keep buying cats? Why not stop buying cats so you dont have to kill animals for them? The argument here is about the vegetarians morality here. Not the cats. If vegetarians kept less cats as pets, then less animals would get slaughtered.

I still don't see why my choice of not eating meat (if I was vegetarian) should prohibit me from owning a cat.

It's my choice about what I eat for ethical and moral reasons. As a human, I'm able to make moral and ethical decisions for myself.
I practice non-violence and compassion in my approach to eating, why should I impose that on others? It's my choice.
It's actually not hypocritical to not impose my eating habits on other creatures.
Cats make good companions to some people, good friends - what they eat is irrelevant to the choices I make about what I eat.

 

[w1z4rd]

I still don't see why my choice of not eating meat (if I was vegetarian) should prohibit me from owning a cat.

It's my choice about what I eat for ethical and moral reasons. As a human, I'm able to make moral and ethical decisions for myself.
I practice non-violence and compassion in my approach to eating, why should I impose that on others? It's my choice.
It's actually not hypocritical to not impose my eating habits on other creatures.
Cats make good companions to some people, good friends - what they eat is irrelevant to the choices I make about what I eat.

Im too tired to repeat myself. You are still missing the argument. Reread carefully what I wrote in my previous responses. The wording is important.

 

[Sherbang]

Im too tired to repeat myself. You are still missing the argument. Reread carefully what I wrote in my previous responses. The wording is important.

What the **** am I missing?
You said vegetarians shouldn't own cats because cats eat meat? Right?

 

[w1z4rd]

What the **** am I missing?
You said vegetarians shouldn't own cats because cats eat meat? Right?

No.

Vegetarians who are vegetarian because they are against animals getting killed should not own cats otherwise they look hypocritical. Those people tell us we dont NEED meat to survive, so we shouldnt kill animals to survive. So if they want less animals to be killed, then they should own less cats. As you dont NEED a cat to survive. I know a cat needs meat to survive. Thats my point. The more people who keep cats, the more meat that needs to be killed. Now if the focus is on not killing any animals, then it does not make sense to keep a predator that kills many animals.

See cguys response to see how those type of people I am referring to, are trying to get around this morality issue as they themselves have identified. it.

 

[cguy]

Well, let it not be said, you dont walk the walk

I had to google vegetarian cats and dogs... apprently PETA approve: http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/vegetarian-cats-dogs/ lol

Vets have a different view on the cats:


http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats

Well I learnt something new.

That's not what "vets" believe, that's what some vets believe. Any argument that is based on "going against their physiology" or "design" is just BS. Metabolizing the right set of input nutrients is just a chemical process, the source of those nutrients is completely irrelevant from a scientific and nutritional perspective.

Here's one, that suggests caution after a study, but indicated that it possible, and from a vegan perspective, a small risk is better than supporting all that harm to others:
http://m.petmd.com/blogs/nutritionnuggets/cat/jcoates/2014/jan/can-cats-thrive-on-vegetarian-diet-31187

Also, the reverse holds, horses can and do eat meat (certain mountain folk societies - google it) - once again, it's just chemistry.

 

[w1z4rd]

That's not what "vets" believe, that's what some vets believe. Any argument that is based on "going against their physiology" or "design" is just BS. Metabolizing the right set of input nutrients is just a chemical process, the source of those nutrients is completely irrelevant from a scientific and nutritional perspective.

Well I dont think its that simple. If I eat too much meat, I know it can cause cancer. I know feeding meat to cows can cause mad cow disease because of certain proteins. There are likely to be lots of side effects when changing a diet. I know with my snakes. Just changing them from eating frogs or geckos to changing them to eat mice can have serious side effects. Surviving does not equal thriving.

 

[cguy]

No.

Vegetarians who are vegetarian because they are against animals getting killed should not own cats otherwise they look hypocritical. Those people tell us we dont NEED meat to survive, so we shouldnt kill animals to survive. So if they want less animals to be killed, then they should own less cats. As you dont NEED a cat to survive. I know a cat needs meat to survive. Thats my point. The more people who keep cats, the more meat that needs to be killed. Now if the focus is on not killing any animals, then it does not make sense to keep a predator that kills many animals.

See cguys response to see how those type of people I am referring to, are trying to get around this morality issue as they themselves have identified. it.

Whoa - they would only be hypocritical if they claimed to be extreme utilitarians. A vast majority of people aren't.

 

[Sherbang]

No.

Vegetarians who are vegetarian because they are against animals getting killed should not own cats otherwise they look hypocritical. Those people tell us we dont NEED meat to survive, so we shouldnt kill animals to survive. So if they want less animals to be killed, then they should own less cats. As you dont NEED a cat to survive. I know a cat needs meat to survive. Thats my point. The more people who keep cats, the more meat that needs to be killed. Now if the focus is on not killing any animals, then it does not make sense to keep a predator that kills many animals.

See cguys response to see how those type of people I am referring to, are trying to get around this morality issue as they themselves have identified. it.

I still don't see it, sorry.

We don't NEED meat to survive, so we can choose to not kill animals and can still survive and be healthy.
If we choose not to eat meat this is a personal choice of love and compassion.

Cats DO NEED meat to survive, so we can choose to allow animals to be killed for their survival.
If we choose to befriend and keep cats - it is also an act of love an compassion.
When we give our cats meat to eat, this too is an act of love and compassion, for the cat cannot survive without meat.

The focus is not on 'not killing any animals' per se - it is not killing animals for my personal consumption.
It's personal choice that applies to me, not to anyone else, not to my cat.

 

[cguy]

I still don't see it, sorry.

We don't NEED meat to survive, so we can choose to not kill animals and can still survive and be healthy.
If we choose not to eat meat this is a personal choice of love and compassion.

Cats DO NEED meat to survive, so we can choose to allow animals to be killed for their survival.
If we choose to befriend and keep cats - it is also an act of love an compassion.
When we give our cats meat to eat, this too is an act of love and compassion, for the cat cannot survive without meat.

The focus is not on 'not killing any animals' per se - it is not killing animals for my personal consumption.
It's personal choice that applies to me, not to anyone else, not to my cat.

Perhaps this sums it up:

Ghoti's point in a nutshell, is that you could elect to kill your cat, and thereby reduce the net damage caused by your cats diet. This is an extreme utilitarian stance, but a correct assertion.

Your belief, is that you want to reduce as much suffering as possible without personally killing anything (your cat).

Ghoti's approach would in this localized scenario be the better analytic choice, however, the level of detachment required to make the most logical choice here, would also require a psychopathic level of stoicism, which from a global perspective would be undesirable.

I should point out that both of the above choices do in fact cause far less damage than a cat owner who eats meat and feeds their cat meat. In terms of trying to minimize harm while not becoming a killer yourself, you are doing just fine.

 

[w1z4rd]

Whoa - they would only be hypocritical if they claimed to be extreme utilitarians. A vast majority of people aren't.

Okay, perhaps my anecdotal exposure to vegans and vegetarians is warped The number one reason people tell me they have gone herbivore is based on ethical/morality reasons around animal welfare/rights (number two is for health reasons). I live in East London. There may be too many hippies here that have warped my perception on why people are vegetarians.

 

[w1z4rd]

Ghoti's approach would in this localized scenario be the better analytic choice, however, the level of detachment required to make the most logical choice here, would also require a psychopathic level of stoicism, which from a global perspective would be undesirable.
.

In this I was thinking more along the lines of stop buying them. Stop breeding them. Stop owning them. Over time their numbers will decline naturally. Not kill all existing cats...

To simplify the argument (and without a poor cat losing its life). Pretend you are a PETA loving animal rights activist who doesnt eat meat because you cant stand how animals are treated on farms, etc. Now if you to to the shop and buy a cat, are you or are you not a hypocrite?