Vegetarian diet associated with worse health: study

ShaunSA

ShaunSA

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If anyone is a hypocrite it's a meat-eater who goes on about why we shouldn't be eating cats and dogs :erm:

And we have tons of those around.
 
Garson007

Garson007

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ShaunSA said:
If anyone is a hypocrite it's a meat-eater who goes on about why we shouldn't be eating cats and dogs :erm:
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I have zero problems with eating cats and dogs. As long as it's not someone's pet.
 
B

BCO

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Garson007 said:
Citation please. First step would be to prove self awareness.
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Not only self-awareness, but empathy has been observed in animals.

http://phys.org/news/2014-01-social-empathetic-pro-social-behavior-rats.html

Then there's the Cambridge Declaration of Consciuosness.
The absence of a neocortex does not appear to preclude an organism from experiencing affective states. Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors. Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.
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saor

saor

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Garson007 said:
Citation please. First step would be to prove self awareness.
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The relevance? If self-awareness = the ability to experience pain or suffering then it might be a valid argument. Dogs fail the mirror test , but from living with them I'm quite certain they experience pain rather than pretend to exhibit pain. And they avoid it the next time round. They show signs of fear.

So again - I'm not sure what the relevance is of proving without a doubt self-awareness in (all) animals. It's about not intentionally causing suffering & exposing them to such disgusting conditions (so that they might end up a piece of deep-fried meat on a 2c bun).
 
Spliffcat

Spliffcat

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Why do we get canabils in this day and age? They are sure as he'll not vegans.
 
B

BCO

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Garson007 said:
The two are unrelated. If I design a robot that cares for other robots, does that mean that it is self aware? It certainly does not.
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The rat is aware of the mental state of another rat and takes steps to alleviate distress in others. That's a step beyond just self-awareness.

Garson007 said:
Derp.
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Care to elaborate? The notion that animals are simply automatons and that only humans are conscious beings is a pretty antiquated notion put forward by Descartes. Our shared evolutionary history and large degree of physiological similarity with many species (including the common "food" animals) renders the claim that animals have no consciousness more "extreme" than the claim that they do.

There's plenty of research out there to support the notion of animal sentience.
 
Garson007

Garson007

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saor said:
snip
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Pain and death are very different things. Right to not suffer and a right to life.

BCO said:
The rat is aware of the mental state of another rat and takes steps to alleviate distress in others. That's a step beyond just self-awareness.
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I'm sorry but, no. No other animals have been shown to hold a theory of mind.

BCO said:
Care to elaborate? The notion that animals are simply automatons and that only humans are conscious beings is a pretty antiquated notion put forward by Descartes. Our shared evolutionary history and large degree of physiological similarity with many species (including the common "food" animals) renders the claim that animals have no consciousness more "extreme" than the claim that they do.

There's plenty of research out there to support the notion of animal sentience.
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Consciousness is a derp subject from a scientific perspective because it's far too philosophical. What we can do however, is try and test for things that is of importance to us. Self-awareness, theory of mind - etcetera.
 
C

cguy

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Garson007 said:
I'm sorry but, no. No other animals have been shown to hold a theory of mind.
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It is by definition impossible to prove a ToM (even in humans), however, it is possible provide empirical evidence - there is tons of research on this that strongly suggests a ToM in animals (use "the Google"). Empirical studies, evolutionary continuity and common sense suggest that it would be irresponsible to assume otherwise.
 
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L

liber8

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STS said:
*gets in car*
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2nvb0v8.jpg
 
Garson007

Garson007

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cguy said:
It is by definition impossible to prove a ToM (even in humans), however, it is possible provide empirical evidence - there is tons of research on this that strongly suggests a ToM in animals (use "the Google"). Empirical studies, evolutionary continuity and common sense suggest that it would be irresponsible to assume otherwise.
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Let me know when an animal passes the Sally Anne test.
 
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