WATCH: SAPS launch investigation into White River police station assault

[HunterNW]

Then they would all still be cunts assaulting a member of the public in a police station, but all the politicians would get involved and stoke hatred against your people. Much similar to what our local bigot Alice are doing in the other thread.

Who's Alice and what thread ?

 

[Craig_]

Who's Alice and what thread ?

Alice

 

[Cosmik Debris]

The best thing you can do to a troll is to troll them back, it has worked for all the years I've been on this forum.

Yeah, but it gets irritating. The reason I won't troll you back.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Again no, this is not actually the case. The police can legally institute charges on behalf of the State if they witness or are informed of a crime in the list of Schedule 1 crimes and investigate it and find there are grounds to do so.
That they do not operate that way is a different issue completely.

Reason being that if the person assaulted or burgled won't lay charges, he won't be a witness in court anyway and the charge will fall flat. If the person does not feel offended, there is no offence. It won't even get past the public prosecutor and on the court roll. Waste of time. That's why they won't do it for schedule one offences.

Everyone complains the police don't have enough resources to investigate crimes and you want to clog up detectives with crimes that all know won't even make it into court? There's pragmatism at play here.

 

[Tokolotshe]

Reason being that if the person assaulted or burgled won't lay charges, he won't be a witness in court anyway and the charge will fall flat. If the person does not feel offended, there is no offence. It won't even get past the public prosecutor and on the court roll. Waste of time. That's why they won't do it for schedule one offences.

Everyone complains the police don't have enough resources to investigate crimes and you want to clog up detectives with crimes that all know won't even make it into court? There's pragmatism at play here.

Let's just also park the thought here that people are scared to report and press charges.

If SAPS can't even keep their own safe, yet you have to report serious organized crime ...

 

[ToxicBunny]

Reason being that if the person assaulted or burgled won't lay charges, he won't be a witness in court anyway and the charge will fall flat. If the person does not feel offended, there is no offence. It won't even get past the public prosecutor and on the court roll. Waste of time. That's why they won't do it for schedule one offences.

Everyone complains the police don't have enough resources to investigate crimes and you want to clog up detectives with crimes that all know won't even make it into court? There's pragmatism at play here.

I don't disagree that in many instances the police would be wasting their time and resources investigating and charging people if the victim doesn't lay the charge.

But to state that they can't do so is incorrect, they can. They have the legal power to do so if they are witness to the crime. They do not need to victim to be involved in the case either at that point but it is obviously incredibly beneficial if that is the case.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Let's just also park the thought here that people are scared to report and press charges.

If SAPS can't even keep their own safe, yet you have to report serious organized crime ...

Correct. A bit back I mentioned that I know of a man that refuses to lay charges despite losing the use of one arm after a beating. He is involved in criminal activities but still deserves justice. The police can do nothing as he would just clam up in court and the case will go nowhere.

You don't report organised crime to the front desk. You make an appointment with the station commissioner or take your concerns to the Community Police Forum who will assist you in getting the details reported confidentially to crime intelligence via the station commissioner.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

I don't disagree that in many instances the police would be wasting their time and resources investigating and charging people if the victim doesn't lay the charge.

But to state that they can't do so is incorrect, they can. They have the legal power to do so if they are witness to the crime. They do not need to victim to be involved in the case either at that point but it is obviously incredibly beneficial if that is the case.

Apologies if the way I came across was incorrect.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Apologies if the way I came across was incorrect.

No stress dude.... Clarification comes with time sometimes

We all miss each other at times.

Though if we are to be specific in this instance being presented in this thread, the victim laying a charge or not would not make or break the case as there were many legal transgression at play that the cops can tackle against those private security individuals. Given that their are now videos out in the public domain I think the SAPS are going to have a tough time burying this one the way their PR machine has tried to at this point.

 

[R13...]

A shortcut to the relevant part in the vid:

That's no shortcut. Post one without commentary. If I want commentary I'll watch TV news and I don't watch that

 

[Tokolotshe]

That's no shortcut. Post one without commentary. If I want commentary I'll watch TV news and I don't watch that

Ah, so you'd rather just speculate:

They seem to also just look on as the assault continues.

Cool.

Post one without commentary

Pls go help yourself ...

 

[wingnut771]

That's no shortcut. Post one without commentary. If I want commentary I'll watch TV news and I don't watch that

Click play and listen for 1 min.

 

[AdrianH]

Wrong. The only charge the police can lay is murder. I visit many people a month on behalf of the police to advise them that the police cannot proceed with their complaint unless the complainant lays a charge or swears an affidavit to the police so that they can open a docket. Without the charge/affidavit a docket cannot be opened and without a docket the case cannot be investigated and brought to a court.

This is precisely what the public doesn't understand.

If a police officer is witness to a crime against an individual (such as in this very incident), or there is evidence supporting an individual committed a crime (such as in this very incident), a case can be opened and investigated by the police without any statement/affidavit from the victim. On conclusion of said investigation, a decision will be decided to charge the accused or not, normally with guidance of the state prosecutor, though normally without the victim it will be a steep uphill battle to convict unless there are other witnesses or evidence like video footage. If they do decide to charge the accused, if there was police officer that was witness to the crime being committed, they become a witness for the state. If the victim comes forward later, their statement and/or evidence will be added to the docket.

The above is even more true in a lot of countries when it comes to domestic abuse. The prosecuting authority of a country can decide to continue with the investigation and ultimately lay charges even if the complainant has withdrew their statement/affidavit and/or complaint. Its like this in the UK, and SA as far as I recall, and its to stop this cycle of domestic abuse where the complainant repeatedly accuses and withdrawals, and the alleged abusers keeps getting away with it. In fact, in UK, they will just summon the victim to court, and refusal to answer all questions ends up as contempt of court, except for self incrimination. Another fun fact of UK, refusing to provide pin or password for a mobile device that has been siezed for evidence, is also punishable with jail time.

Back to topic though, here is an example of a real case in SA 2019 where police opened docket without laying charges and without victim statement, and if victim submits a statement, it will be added to the docket as 'evidence'.

The South African Police Service (SAPS) has opened an inquiry docket into the alleged assault of "Gqom Queen" Babes Wodumo after video footage emerged showing her partner Mandla 'Mampintsha' Maphumulo allegedly assaulting her.

National police spokesperson Vish Naidoo said because of the public outrage and the evidence in the form of the video, the police decided to investigate the case

"Because of the video and the social media activity that has been taking place, we decided to investigate the case and in order to justify an investigation, we opened an inquiry docket," Naidoo told News24

Naidoo added that, when Babes, real name Bongekile Simelane reports the case and submits a statement, that would therefore add value to the investigation

Police open inquiry docket following Babes Wodumo assault | News24

The South African Police Service have opened an inquiry docket into the alleged assault of "Gqom Queen", Babes Wodumo, after video footage emerged showing her partner Mampintsha allegedly assaulting her.

www.news24.com

And again...

Her family has said the video is real and not a publicity stunt and that she will lay charges over the matter.

There have been calls for Mampintsha’s arrest from Ministers, MEC’s, various celebrities and fans.

National Police Spokesperson, Vish Naidoo, says their investigation will be strengthened if someone who witnessed the abuse or if Babes Wodumo herself came forward to give a statement.

“In a case like this, we can take over the case as a state case. Where we can know if it’s been witnessed by a police officer or if it’s witnessed by an individual who’s prepared to give us a statement we can register a docket and investigate it. But ultimately, the most important thing is to have an opportunity to interview the victim, but we cannot take the video itself. But yes we can take over this investigation as a state case, but it always helps the course of the investigation if we have the statement of the victim.”

Police can take over Wodumo’s case without formal charges being laid - SABC News - Breaking news, special reports, world, business, sport coverage of all South African current events. Africa's news leader.

The police say they have the ability to take over and investigate the alleged abuse of Babes Wodumo without formal charges being laid.

www.sabcnews.com

 

[Cosmik Debris]

The prosecuting authority of a country can decide to continue with the investigation and ultimately lay charges even if the complainant has withdrew their statement/affidavit and/or complaint.

And therein lies the rub. In South Africa the person the crime syndicates seek to corrupt is the public prosecutor. He decides whether the case gets into court or not. The judge or magistrate doesn't even get to see the case if he decides it's not going to court.

I have seen cases rejected because of a spelling mistake made by the police. I have also seen an assault case that was witnessed by a bent cop and several other members of the public that gave detailed statements rejected. The reason? The assailant had no "intent" to assault the victim. Didn't even make it onto the court roll.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Police can take over Wodumo’s case without formal charges being laid - SABC News - Breaking news, special reports, world, business, sport coverage of all South African current events. Africa's news leader.

The police say they have the ability to take over and investigate the alleged abuse of Babes Wodumo without formal charges being laid.

www.sabcnews.com

Yes they can. But it will go nowhere without her co-operation and willingness to prosecute. So why do all that paperwork for no result?

 

[AdrianH]

And therein lies the rub. In South Africa the person the crime syndicates seek to corrupt is the public prosecutor. He decides whether the case gets into court or not. The judge or magistrate doesn't even get to see the case if he decides it's not going to court.

I have seen cases rejected because of a spelling mistake made by the police. I have also seen an assault case that was witnessed by a bent cop and several other members of the public that gave detailed statements rejected. The reason? The assailant had no "intent" to assault the victim. Didn't even make it onto the court roll.

Yes they can. But it will go nowhere without her co-operation and willingness to prosecute. So why do all that paperwork for no result?

Sure, each case opened by police will have be investigated and a decision will be made on the evidence gathered. Just because your experiences has shown cases to be thrown out due to technicalities or corruption or other reasons, doesn't make the below statements true.

But if the person that was assaulted, even in front of them, refuses to lay a charge, they are powerless to charge the perp.

The police are obliged to react and protect the person being assaulted. What a lot of the public don't realise is that, except for murder, the police cannot charge anyone for assault on anyone else. The charge has to be laid by the victim. I am aware of a person who no longer has the use of an arm but refuses to lay a charge because he is afraid of the repercussions. The police can do nothing to help him. The charge is the legal paperwork that starts the entire ball rolling. Without it, the police have to release the assailant even if they detained him/her to prevent an assault.

The above is definitely not true when it comes to domestic assault.

It works like this:

1. Victim lays charge of assault or submits an affidavit. The police will formulate the charges from an affidavit.
2. A docket is opened and the victim is given a MAS number.
3. The docket is sent to the detectives for investigation.
4. The perp is arrested.
5. The perp appears in a court within 48 hours to answer charges.
6. The perp is either released on bail or kept in custody
7. A trial date is set.
8. The trial is held.
9. If guilty, the perp is sentenced.

Just a minor, but the complainant (we shouldn't use the word victim - PC stuff) makes allegations as part of statement/affidavit which may result in the police or prosecuting authority pressing one or more charges after the investigation is complete. I bring this up as unless its very serious allegation or crime, the perp normally gets released on bail without being charged (pre-charge bail) until such time the investigation is complete. As part of the bail condition would be to report back to the police station at a date pre-determined which normally coincides with the completion of the investigation and at that point the perp may be charged, and if so, detained or re-released on bail, or NFA (no further action)

 

[ForceFate]

This is Africa where people pick fights with you just because of the color of your skin.

Even sitting in traffic minding your own business can get you into trouble.

Erm... There are such instances but they're not widespread. Also, people picking fights because of one's skin colour is an age old problem, only now we're able to capture them and post on YT.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Erm... There are such instances but they're not widespread. Also, people picking fights because of one's skin colour is an age old problem, only now we're able to capture them and post on YT.

Yeah, BLM deserved to be called out.

 

[ForceFate]

What's fascinating is that this company exists without much of a web presence at all. How do you suppose they get their work?

Some people rely on word of mouth marketing, especially localised businesses

 

[OCP]

Erm... There are such instances but they're not widespread. Also, people picking fights because of one's skin colour is an age old problem, only now we're able to capture them and post on YT.

I did not insinuate that this is only happening in South Africa.

Pointed out that "minding your own business is enough not to get into trouble in this country" is factually incorrect.