WATCH: Woman screams as JMPD officers restrain her for blood alcohol test - but City of Joburg insists its 'legal'

Cray

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This.
You can't just create fines, arrests out of thin air... Although I have seen it being done.
No they can't but they can certainly be a lot stricter on infringements. I have seen people get told "go straight home" when blowing a little over the limit in the past. If pressure is coming from above then these sort of scenarios might easily start translating into arrests even though the chance of them being successfully prosecuted is slimm..
 

quovadis

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At least in the UK failure to provide a sample (in that case to their evidentiary breath machine) is also an offence, treated as if you were indeed then drunk, sadly we do not have the same law in SA.
Last I checked Defeating or obstructing the ends of justice carried a multi year sentence in South Africa? It's a common law offence.
 

Zoomzoom

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How do you propose they take blood from an uncooperative person?
Restraints.
No I doubt that, they were merely attempting to get all of her to sit still so they did not break the needle.... had a few similar experiences as a uncooperative child.... I REALLY did not like needles and such action was on occasion needed. I think you are simply seeing it that way because it was men doing it and you have your issues, I might be wrong of course.
Sit would imply she was in a chair, she wasn't. She was spreadeagled on her back on the table while the cop squirmed about on top of her.
 

supersunbird

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Restraints.


Sit would imply she was in a chair, she wasn't. She was spreadeagled on her back on the table while the cop squirmed about on top of her.
You'd surely have a problem with her being held down/the way she'd have to be held down so that the restraints can be fitted then, so what's the difference?
 

quovadis

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There is no such a thing as a target set on fines. They do have targets like X number of stop and searches, X number of road-blocks, X number of inspections done at take away places and checking in formal traders permits and the likes. Just like you would have targets doing your job.
I would argue that that is a very fine line.
 

Zoomzoom

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the cop is 'restraining' her with his body between her legs. You can see her knee come up beside his waist as she struggles. Are you all trying to tell me that with all the people in the room the ONLY way he could restrain her was to bend her backwards over the table and get between her legs to hold her down? Really that was the ONLY option? There was absolutely no other way to hold her arm out straight to draw blood?
 

thechamp

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the cop is 'restraining' her with his body between her legs. You can see her knee come up beside his waist as she struggles. Are you all trying to tell me that with all the people in the room the ONLY way he could restrain her was to bend her backwards over the table and get between her legs to hold her down? Really that was the ONLY option? There was absolutely no other way to hold her arm out straight to draw blood?
We can all agree there wouldn't be a universally accepted way of dealing with a person who does not want to cooperate, there will always be something wrong with the use of force, if it is not what you are complaining about it would be something else, like " I was bruised when they pinned me down too hard".

Best way is to cooperate with the police.
 

Swa

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This woman was an idiot to act the way she did and she just made her life a miserable hell for no reason.
Not for no reason. There were multiple procedural violations. You can't compare the two situations of police acting correctly vs them not.

Yet, the police did nothing wrong in this instance.
BS

As is typical people are conflating two separate issues here.

Issue 1 - where the police within their rights to take blood

Issue 2 - Did the police act correctly in the manner in which they took blood.

Answer to 1 - yes of course. case closed.

Answer to 2 - No way in hell was that cop climbing all over her like that OK. How would you feel if it was your mom, or sister, or close friend who was treated like that? Irrespective of why she was fussing there is no way that it was ok for her to be pinned down on the table while a man writhed around on top of her trying to restrain her.
Beg to differ of #1. Still haven't seen anything allowing them to commit assault.

How do you propose they take blood from an uncooperative person?

At least in the UK failure to provide a sample (in that case to their evidentiary breath machine) is also an offence, treated as if you were indeed then drunk, sadly we do not have the same law in SA.
They don't, simple as that. Yes not complying without reason is an offence. Interestingly under AARTO it's only a violation and not a criminal offence. We have the laws but they have to be enforced by properly trained personnel. Seeing how easy it is to become an officer these days it's no wonder we have all these issues.

No I doubt that, they were merely attempting to get all of her to sit still so they did not break the needle.... had a few similar experiences as a uncooperative child.... I REALLY did not like needles and such action was on occasion needed. I think you are simply seeing it that way because it was men doing it and you have your issues, I might be wrong of course.
It was a male. That automatically makes it sexual assault.

We can all agree there wouldn't be a universally accepted way of dealing with a person who does not want to cooperate, there will always be something wrong with the use of force, if it is not what you are complaining about it would be something else, like " I was bruised when they pinned me down too hard".

Best way is to cooperate with the police.
Best way is for police not to act unlawfully.
 

Zoomzoom

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We can all agree there wouldn't be a universally accepted way of dealing with a person who does not want to cooperate, there will always be something wrong with the use of force, if it is not what you are complaining about it would be something else, like " I was bruised when they pinned me down too hard".

Best way is to cooperate with the police.
Amazingly there are accepted methods of physically restraining people with minimum force because people in hospitals, psychiatric wards, and other situations where people are in some way disturbed, agitated, aggressive, or uncooperative have to be restrained for their own good.
 

Zoomzoom

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Beg to differ of #1. Still haven't seen anything allowing them to commit assault.
see where I said people are mixing up two different issues. According to the law in SA the police are within their rights to insist on drawing blood. What is up for contention is how they chose to enforce that. And that is where I agree with you - they were not right in how they did it. I think the manner in which the woman is positioned with the cop between her legs crosses a line and heads off into the distance like Usain Bolt doing the 100m dash. And I think it is appalling that the people "investigating" this have used the fact that they can take blood, even by force, to excuse how it was done in this instance.
 

Bundu

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Not for no reason. There were multiple procedural violations. You can't compare the two situations of police acting correctly vs them not.


BS


Beg to differ of #1. Still haven't seen anything allowing them to commit assault.


They don't, simple as that. Yes not complying without reason is an offence. Interestingly under AARTO it's only a violation and not a criminal offence. We have the laws but they have to be enforced by properly trained personnel. Seeing how easy it is to become an officer these days it's no wonder we have all these issues.


It was a male. That automatically makes it sexual assault.


Best way is for police not to act unlawfully.
if she was assaulted, why isn't she pressing charges or launching a claim against them?

should a woman always be treated differently when breaking the law?
 

Zoomzoom

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if she was assaulted, why isn't she pressing charges or launching a claim against them?

should a woman always be treated differently when breaking the law?
Everyone should be treated with respect and not be subject to unnecessary use of force especially when said use of force looks astonishingly like a sexual assault in progress.
 

thechamp

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Amazingly there are accepted methods of physically restraining people with minimum force because people in hospitals, psychiatric wards, and other situations where people are in some way disturbed, agitated, aggressive, or uncooperative have to be restrained for their own good.
And I am 100% sure that if you took your tick sheet along you would also find something wrong even when such methods are applied.
 

Bundu

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Everyone should be treated with respect and not be subject to unnecessary use of force especially when said use of force looks astonishingly like a sexual assault in progress.
then she is stupid if she doesn't press charges? No? or just your evaluation faulted?
 

thechamp

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then she is stupid if she doesn't press charges? No? or just your evaluation faulted?
She isn't, she is bright enough to appreciate that she dodged a bullet, she is doing what most people would have done, heaving a huge sigh of relief and moving on.
 

Craig

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She isn't, she is bright enough to appreciate that she dodged a bullet, she is doing what most people would have done, heaving a huge sigh of relief and moving on.
She deflected the bullet, she didn't just dodge it. Hopefully we don't see more of this behaviour from drunken criminals in future now that it's clear you can get off from a drunk driving charge this way.
 

Bundu

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She isn't, she is bright enough to appreciate that she dodged a bullet, she is doing what most people would have done, heaving a huge sigh of relief and moving on.
obviously! I was just playing on the "she was the wronged innocent" story
 
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