Website generating generic legal documents - Lawlive & Netlawman

[Toby]

If posting in incorrect section, admins please move and accept apologies.

Has anyone used the services of http://www.netlawman.co.za and/or http://www.lawlive.co.za

I am setting up a website and need a T&C and Privacy statement.

If someone suggests that i copy an existing sites T&C and Privacy statement, that to me would be unethical.

The above services seem interesting and appear cost effective.
It looks like you can save your http://www.lawlive.co.za docs on their "cloud" and reuse by changing options. Not sure if this is possible with http://www.netlawman.co.za

What other services are available.

Has anyone had any pitfalls with these services or found that the documents did not stand legal muster when the chips were down. In other words, has a good lawyer found lots of loop holes.

 

[koeksGHT]

Do they actually hold t's and c's? From what I heard in court doesn't matter what your terms say if it's a legimitate issue the person has, only really a guideline and to get stupid people think they have no option cause they agreed.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Do they actually hold t's and c's? From what I heard in court doesn't matter what your terms say if it's a legimitate issue the person has, only really a guideline and to get stupid people think they have no option cause they agreed.

All this are company policies, whatever it state it must still abide to the law. However when it is complaint with the law it is still an guideline, especially come with the consumer, information, communication acts, used as reference points. We have a generic copy entailing each policy practice applicable to global regions, pretty much straightforward.

 

[Toby]

All this are company policies, whatever it state it must still abide to the law. However when it is complaint with the law it is still an guideline, especially come with the consumer, information, communication acts, used as reference points. We have a generic copy entailing each policy practice applicable to global regions, pretty much straightforward.

This is the Point. Whatever i set as my T&C's Should/Must be compliant with current legislation. Also as a non legal person, I do not want to land up in a situation where my attempts to draft a T&C to be compliant with one law, then unintentionally breaks compliance with another law.

The Generic Copy you have, did you draft it yourself, or did you obtain from another source. If another Source, do you mind letting me know what the source is.

 

[Paul Hjul]

I am not of the Californian school of thought so:
http://www.netlawman.co.za/ is out because the very claim of striving towards "plain English" is the cause of so much stupidity in law that it isn't even funny. Plain English movements get things wrong in legal usage almost as severely as they get matters concerning weather and scientific explanations in general horribly wrong - the PEC has demonstrated quite a lack of understanding that precipitation is a genus and rain but one species, such a lack of understanding of nomenclature is comical when dealing whether the weather and fatal when looking at contracts.

No idea about http://www.lawlive.co.za/

As a general point of caution be aware of the fact that a person accessing a website on the public internet for which they are not logging into a service is provided unabridged authorized access to the content. The case law on the subject makes your rights for copyright etc ... quite sound but a T&Cs is not really going to be particularly helpful other than to assert an own risk premise which is asserted across the chain of access on the Internet.

 

[Net Lawman]

Net Lawman website T&C

Dear Toby,

The reason to create your own T&C rather than use someone else's is more to make sure that the terms reflect how your business operates than for ethics. We have an article on our UK website that explains the general points (as applicable to South Africa as to the UK). http://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/why-website-terms-are-important

Net Lawman's website T&Cs are compliant with the latest applicable South African law. They are recent documents onto the site.

Despite the opinions of Paul Hjul, website T&Cs are probably the best example of where use plain English actually strengthens the contract. To be enforceable, both parties must have understood the contract. If you use legal jargon, it is easier for you customer to claim he didn't understand what he was buying.

If you have any more questions about the law around T&C, please do contact us.

Lastly, all Net Lawman documents come with a full money back guarantee. If you buy, but don't like the document and decide not to use it, we offer a full refund without quibble.

 

[Paul Hjul]

a debate on the relative merits of the "Plain English Movement" - and more particularly whether such adoption "strengthens a contract" on a premise of better reflecting the reaching of consensus between the parties - is venturing a little off topic to the question at hand, but it is one which might be quite interesting - if somewhat academic - on this forum. It should probably be pointed out that the opening qualifier and response is probably a good example of jestfulness getting lost in written communication.

You will need to approach the sites admin to have your account reflect being a company rep.

 

[Fulcrum29]

I wanted to reply to Toby yesterday, but I'm in the festive season mood. #1 The generic copy is in fact a draft, it must be revisioned according to change and importantly industry where laws are indifferent. #2 The original had been done by a partner company and the revisions done in "collaboration" between companies, the final draft is done by a personal lawyer, where it receives our approval end in matters.

Now why did I reply now... Dear Net Lawmen, why the T's & C's, the purpose in having it publically visible?

Btw, a refund when law hits the fan... not that quite viable.

 

[Toby]

Back to the issue at hand

Lets get back to basics.

I am building an online store and obviously will have policies/T&C's that covers the following for example.
(I am not setting all this as my T&C's but including for discussion)

Who pays for shipping
When/why can goods be returned by customer.
Site Contents (Descriptions, Graphics, etc) are not to be copied
Order cancelled after x number of days if not paid for/confirmed
Goods not shipped until payment received
Goods Warranty are standard manufacturer warranty
Goods availability to be confirmed with supplier before confirming with customer etc.

The question now is.

How do i draft the T&C's (for example the above) whilst not conflicting with current SA Regulations/Laws
How do I ensure that my T&C's do not conflict with SA Regulations/Laws (in other words I inadvertently "break' an SA Regulation/Law
How do I ensure that I do not open myself up to being "legally abused" by having a badly drafted T&C

The Regulations/Laws that I see being be applicable here are (there may be others)

Consumer Protection Act
National Credit Act
Protection of Personal Information Act
Occupational Health and Safety Act
Electronic Communications and Transaction Act

Reuse

My thinking is that the above issues must have been faced by others who have previously setup online stores, and that there may be a 80% commonality between various Online Stores T&C's to ensure that the various online-stores comply with legislation. So why re-invent the wheel by drafting from scratch. This is the reason I am looking at the option of using http://www.netlawman.co.za or http://www.lawlive.co.za

Any comments and/or previous experience

 

[Fulcrum29]

Lets get back to basics.

I am building an online store and obviously will have policies/T&C's that covers the following for example.
(I am not setting all this as my T&C's but including for discussion)

Who pays for shipping
When/why can goods be returned by customer.
Site Contents (Descriptions, Graphics, etc) are not to be copied
Order cancelled after x number of days if not paid for/confirmed
Goods not shipped until payment received
Goods Warranty are standard manufacturer warranty
Goods availability to be confirmed with supplier before confirming with customer etc.

The question now is.

How do i draft the T&C's (for example the above) whilst not conflicting with current SA Regulations/Laws
How do I ensure that my T&C's do not conflict with SA Regulations/Laws (in other words I inadvertently "break' an SA Regulation/Law
How do I ensure that I do not open myself up to being "legally abused" by having a badly drafted T&C

The Regulations/Laws that I see being be applicable here are (there may be others)

Consumer Protection Act
National Credit Act
Protection of Personal Information Act
Occupational Health and Safety Act
Electronic Communications and Transaction Act

Reuse

My thinking is that the above issues must have been faced by others who have previously setup online stores, and that there may be a 80% commonality between various Online Stores T&C's to ensure that the various online-stores comply with legislation. So why re-invent the wheel by drafting from scratch. This is the reason I am looking at the option of using http://www.netlawman.co.za or http://www.lawlive.co.za

Any comments and/or previous experience

I checked on both Net Lawman en LawLive, the pricing looks good as compared to what we even pay with revisions done.

When you look at their own Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy:

http://www.netlawman.co.za/terms-and-conditions
http://www.netlawman.co.za/privacy-policy
http://www.lawlive.co.za/terms
http://www.lawlive.co.za/privacy

It is compiled to the most standard requirements and does not entail any lack in understanding the wording. The motive is to communicate this through to the consumers and visitors.

When it comes to our website, we have the standard T’s & C’s and accompanying Privacy Policy. The T’s & C’s contains the required and applicable clauses as by your abovementioned laws and regulations.

Three points which have great importance:

1. Disputes clause
2. Company details as required by the electronic communications and transactions act
3. Privacy Policy in detail

The rest is set out according to terms:

1. Terms OF Use
2. Terms OF Sale
3. Terms OF SLA (Service Level Agreement)
4. Bill OF Rights (customer)

Then a program entailing our ethics, whistleblowing, equality and diversity policies. Then a bunch in other policies and documentation not directly available to the public, but available on request. Our company is designed around ethics and thus we naturally treat our external environment as our own internal environment.

An online store will include:

1. Cancellation and Returns Policy
2. Delivery Policy

Reuse is an uneasy term when it comes to law, terms and conditions are customised and personalised according to the entity, which can entail their promotional branding/naming (e.g. Fire Sales), communications etc. Also not many policies have yet been updated to include POPI, which is not yet applicable since we have no commencement date established, this will soon be a concern when it comes to electronic communication which will include hosting etc.

When it comes to site content, you will need to include a permissions clause.

Another note, I have seen companies include copyright on their T’s & C’s and privacy policy… don’t know how this can be done, as everything is standard according to guidelines.