What do you want recruiters to know?

sumacveneneux

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Feb 14, 2012
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97
Hello the Forum,

I have been studying and working in the IT market for a long time now. I am not a recruiter, but rather a specialist researcher, also known as a Sourcer, and one of my primary roles is to network on all levels across categories. As a result of my success with engagement and networking, I have been asked to deliver a few days of technical training. I want to spend at least two hours specifying what you, the IT person wants. Knowing the current market, not only from the research, the headhunting & specialist recruiter side, and also having honest conversations with people about what you, as a person working on your career like, what you respond to, will allow the job market to adjust.

I have found, for instance, that including the tech stack in my initial mail really helps you with a quick overview. One of my questions are - Does adding the category - like investment, medical, banking, media, education help you?

I'd love to hear your input!
Kind regards,
 

ArtyLoop

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Dec 18, 2017
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In other words, a spotter for a recruitment agency, like those guys who hang out at the traffic lights and call the tow trucks.

I am also trying to understand what you are on about.
The job market doesn't need to adjust per se
 

cguy

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Jan 2, 2013
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5,154
Yes, adding the category is very important. It means that domain knowledge is a factor, which is critical from both an interest and compensation perspective.

I frequently get hit up for jobs don’t pay a tenth of what I make because of this, which just creates noise in my inbox.

Similarly, when contacting a very established candidate, it makes sense to give the compensation range early (I’ve even seen it in the subject line a few times), since it lets them know whether or not the position is even in the ballpark.
 

sumacveneneux

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
97
Yes, adding the category is very important. It means that domain knowledge is a factor, which is critical from both an interest and compensation perspective.

I frequently get hit up for jobs don’t pay a tenth of what I make because of this, which just creates noise in my inbox.

Similarly, when contacting a very established candidate, it makes sense to give the compensation range early (I’ve even seen it in the subject line a few times), since it lets them know whether or not the position is even in the ballpark.
Exactly, cguy. As the IT category expands into a full-blown career trajectory (like doctors, lawyers, engineers), more specialisation adjustment is needed from the recruitment side. I already train people to write their subject line with job title, category, location, and to mention the seniority, the tech stack, and the salary range in the introduction. Also whether a degree is needed or experience will do.

I also train people to read summaries, read the profile and to not just send emails by keyword.

Thank you for your input.
 

sumacveneneux

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
97
In other words, a spotter for a recruitment agency, like those guys who hang out at the traffic lights and call the tow trucks.

I am also trying to understand what you are on about.
The job market doesn't need to adjust per se
Thank you for your response. I work with smart professionals from across the globe. Professionals like academics, scientists, engineers, and other highly educated and well-experienced specialists. I spend at least 4 hours a day speaking with EXCO members. All extremely high earning scarce-skilled people. And nowhere in those professions do I ever get rude responses like the one you just gave me. Not even from juniors.

I have made a note of your response and will include it in my training.
 

ArtyLoop

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Dec 18, 2017
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7,172
Thank you for your response. I work with smart professionals from across the globe. Professionals like academics, scientists, engineers, and other highly educated and well-experienced specialists. I spend at least 4 hours a day speaking with EXCO members. All extremely high earning scarce-skilled people. And nowhere in those professions do I ever get rude responses like the one you just gave me. Not even from juniors.

I have made a note of your response and will include it in my training.
Walk it off, princess!
 

Kosmik

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Sep 21, 2007
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Category is really of secondary nature unless you are targeting specific applications.

Biggest pain with recruiters, not being upfront about salary bands or expectations, especially senior devs.
 

ArtyLoop

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Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Messages
7,172
Category is really of secondary nature unless you are targeting specific applications.

Biggest pain with recruiters, not being upfront about salary bands or expectations, especially senior devs.
That exactly
Also lying about the company, having no knowledge of the position, and bothering me at work even though I've told them to take me off their lists repeatedly. Nigel Frank is one such company, I've now blocked their numbers, they just don't listen. Don't even know why they're in business, its not like they place anyone, just monumental time wasters.
 

xrapidx

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I'd like recruiters not to waste my time - in the past 10 years, I've probably gone for three/four interviews, where I confirmed upfront what the position was, and what the salary range was - only to have the recruiter try convince me after a successful interview to take a small decrease, "as the new position is much more suited to me than my current position" OR - I'll get my full leave back after staying at the new company for 5 years, not quite understanding that loosing 5-7 days leave also has a monetary value.

The last interview I did - the company was quite disappointed in my decision to turn them down (as was I as it was a field I hadn't been exposed to before) - I made an effort to contact them afterwards to apologize, and let them know that both my time and their time had been wasted by the recruitment company, they had all my details upfront. At least I made a direct contact in case I change my mind one day.

I point blank refuse to deal with external recruiters now. My linkedin profile header has actually been changed to state NO RECRUITERS - but do you think they read? I still get them adding me with messages "I've read your profile, and have the perfect opportunity". No. You haven't read my profile.
 
Last edited:

ArtyLoop

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I'd like recruiters not to waste my time - in the past 10 years, I've probably gone for three/four interviews, where I confirmed upfront what the position was, and what the salary range was - only to have the recruiter try convince me after a successful interview to take a small decrease, "as the new position is much more suited to me than my current position" OR - I'll get my full leave back after staying at the new company for 5 years, not quite understanding that loosing 5-7 days leave also has a monetary value.

I point blank refuse to deal with external recruiters now. My linkedin profile header has actually been changed to state NO RECRUITERS - but do you think they read? I still get them adding me with messages "I've read your profile, and have the perfect opportunity". No. You haven't read my profile.
Likewise bro, I am doing the same. They still try, even though you make it clear NO RECRUITERS.
 

sumacveneneux

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Messages
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Category is really of secondary nature unless you are targeting specific applications.

Biggest pain with recruiters, not being upfront about salary bands or expectations, especially senior devs.
Hi Kosmik, From our side, we're trying to become as targeted as we can as we see the industry formalising. There are definite trends in which kinds of categories people start specialising from mid-senior and up. So the response is to have specialists - not only by tech stack but by seniority and category. Everyone wants to improve interaction in this new career of the 4th industrial revolution, and we have to pave the road as we go. Speaking directly with each other cuts out a lot of noise.

I suggest setting up a chatbot to interact with recruiters up to a point to ask the important questions on your behalf. As a senior you should expect to work with a senior person from a reputable firm who will work similarly to us - We do not work on roles where there are salary bands for instance - the companies we work with have a specific expectation of the expert they are hoping to find. The money is not important, nor the current location - the skill is. I have senior devs who earn 75k net a month, I have senior devs who earn 75k gross a month, I have senior dev's who earn more than that d

I will reiterate importance about being upfront about salary caps - very valuable info, thanks!
 

Kosmik

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Sep 21, 2007
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The categories people start specializing are more tech categories than field. It would be a very short minded company that hires a developer who does x in field A but don't want them because they haven't done x in field B. TBH, I think most devs would run from that.
 

ArtyLoop

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Dec 18, 2017
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Hi Kosmik, From our side, we're trying to become as targeted as we can as we see the industry formalising. There are definite trends in which kinds of categories people start specialising from mid-senior and up. So the response is to have specialists - not only by tech stack but by seniority and category. Everyone wants to improve interaction in this new career of the 4th industrial revolution, and we have to pave the road as we go. Speaking directly with each other cuts out a lot of noise.

I suggest setting up a chatbot to interact with recruiters up to a point to ask the important questions on your behalf. As a senior you should expect to work with a senior person from a reputable firm who will work similarly to us - We do not work on roles where there are salary bands for instance - the companies we work with have a specific expectation of the expert they are hoping to find. The money is not important, nor the current location - the skill is. I have senior devs who earn 75k net a month, I have senior devs who earn 75k gross a month, I have senior dev's who earn more than that d

I will reiterate importance about being upfront about salary caps - very valuable info, thanks!
Yup, see the bolded part... a real recruiter would say that.
I stopped reading right there, even though the part about the 4th industrial revolution already made me nearly spit my coffee out.
 

Kosmik

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Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
19,396
Yup, see the bolded part... a real recruiter would say that.
I stopped reading right there, even though the part about the 4th industrial revolution already made me nearly spit my coffee out.
:laugh:
Shall we coin the term delusional recruitment?
 

sumacveneneux

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
97
Likewise bro, I am doing the same. They still try, even though you make it clear NO RECRUITERS.
I'd like recruiters not to waste my time - in the past 10 years, I've probably gone for three/four interviews, where I confirmed upfront what the position was, and what the salary range was - only to have the recruiter try convince me after a successful interview to take a small decrease, "as the new position is much more suited to me than my current position" OR - I'll get my full leave back after staying at the new company for 5 years, not quite understanding that loosing 5-7 days leave also has a monetary value.

The last interview I did - the company was quite disappointed in my decision to turn them down (as was I as it was a field I hadn't been exposed to before) - I made an effort to contact them afterwards to apologize, and let them know that both my time and their time had been wasted by the recruitment company, they had all my details upfront. At least I made a direct contact in case I change my mind one day.

I point blank refuse to deal with external recruiters now. My linkedin profile header has actually been changed to state NO RECRUITERS - but do you think they read? I still get them adding me with messages "I've read your profile, and have the perfect opportunity". No. You haven't read my profile.
Hi, Xrapidx, I love this comment because it absolutely echoes the frustration of many people in your field. I know exactly what you mean because I have access to the inmail of an IT guy on a regular basis. This is absolutely relevant and true. I can add to that the people who do not understand that if you did .net 7 years ago, it does not qualify you as a senior .net developer now.

It's a disgrace. And I am sorry that you have had to have experiences like that - and continue to be harassed. Ideally, as we work to change our side of the industry to a less "cowboys and Indians" to more targeted, technical and professional, you will have reputable agents who are industry professionals, who have an understanding of the nuances in the work you do and who can present you with a few relevant opportunities when you reach out to them. It should be a rewarding a pleasant experience, not one of stress, where the highest bidder gets the prize. This is not how careers are built. This is not how relationships are built.

There is a setting on LinkedIn where you can make yourself uncontactable. Recruiters won't be able to send you messages at all when you are unavailable.
 

sumacveneneux

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
97
The categories people start specializing are more tech categories than field. It would be a very short minded company that hires a developer who does x in field A but don't want them because they haven't done x in field B. TBH, I think most devs would run from that.
I hear what you're saying, Kosmik, do I understand right that a developer would want, in terms of their career path, specifically diverse category experience? But for how many years do you diversify? I am seeing senior people who follows a set career path settle on a category after 15/20 years or so - E-commerce, Investment, Finance, Education tend to be popular choices.
 

sumacveneneux

Active Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
97
That exactly
Also lying about the company, having no knowledge of the position, and bothering me at work even though I've told them to take me off their lists repeatedly. Nigel Frank is one such company, I've now blocked their numbers, they just don't listen. Don't even know why they're in business, its not like they place anyone, just monumental time wasters.
ArtyLoop, Thank you for this valuable information. Irresponsible companies will soon feel the might of the law.

You can report any company who infringes an unsubscribe in terms of GDPR law. In terms of that law, an offending company is liable for up to a 100 000Euro fine, whether or not they claim no knowledge. You can take action here: https://edps.europa.eu/data-protection/our-role-supervisor/complaints_en

WRT not having knowledge of the position. This is an important point. Would you be more comfortable if the person who approaches you about (let's hypothesise) a relevant opportunity within your skill set and salary expectations, and this person is an actual ex-developer or a power user conversant with your specific skills?
 
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