WhatsApp and Facebook should be regulated in South Africa: MTN

[2024]

1. Legal Intercept - This is already law and most - if not all - OTT voice and messaging players don't comply.

3. Taxation - OTTs like FB derive a crap-load of revenue from advertising. That is how they can give the service for free. They are selling YOU as the product. All this money flowing out of SA is making people sit up and take notice.

These sound like the governments problems, not MNOs.

 

[icyrus]

1. Legal Intercept - This is already law and most - if not all - OTT voice and messaging players don't comply.

And what exactly are you and other MNOs doing to get those laws struck down so they don't apply to you either?

 

[jannievanzyl]

Hi Jannie. Thank you for jumping in and giving your input. May I aks some questions?

1. Most OTT services to employ some kind of encryption. What if a service like iChat or Telegram (who has got pretty strict self governance regarding keeping information private) refuse to hand over keys to their service to be intercepted? Telegram for example cant themselves even decrypt messages that is done over the secret chat function. They simply cant do it. No record remains on their server and only the two devices that initiated the secret chat can read the message.

This is the big issue the regulator needs to deal with. Like it, or not, the law states that conversations must be able to be intercepted. This is not unique to SA. Some countries have outright banned certain IM services in response to the encryption issue. Clearly this is not the way to go.

But it gives an idea on the complexities around this whole issue. From a MNO perspective, we still get the revenue for the data so don't really care if it's encrypted or not. But id some terrorist group use Telegram to plan their next attack, governments tend to get interested.

2. If a free service's quality degrades, then users will either suck it up and deal with it. It is free after all, or they will move to a competing OTT service. What is your thoughts on this?

Customers ALWAYS start off by saying that they're willing to accept lower quality for low or no pricing. however, this only lasts until they start using the service. Already many complaints around WA on this front.

3. What about services that dont make money from their services. Telegram being one of them. They are self funded and do not derive income from users.

The issue of taxation still applies, I would think. If it's a US-based company selling services to a SA consumer and the revenue flows out of the country without attracting taxation, SARS is going to be asking questions. Would be interesting to get SARS' view on this.

 

[jannievanzyl]

If as you say these are the issues then why is this process being driven business? These are all government/regulatory issues yet there is MTN out front and centre driving the process?
The only conclusion that can be drawn is that it is in their interest.

I'm as amazed as you by some of the unsolicited comments coming out of industry.

 

[jannievanzyl]

As I mentioned previously, if this were to apply for FB - then by that logic it should apply to other services on the internet too. Storage services, all streaming services, all websites (foreign news, gaming, tech sites, etc), blogs, crowd funding, pay services, this list can go on forever. Never mind the streaming sites or the blogs, what about the content creators? Where does this end? Many of these rely on advertising as a primary source of income. So why not tax them all?

The internet is global and community based. I think government and corp execs don't understand how the internet works. This will totally screw up progression. Less volunteers, less start ups, less new products and services.

Agree with you. Governments have a hell of a job trying to figure out how to handle the internet community. Some tax laws have already been changed around the world to enforce location-based taxation.

 

[reactor_sa]

MTN must take its own medicine - still waiting for them to pay their multi billion rand fine to Nigeria FOR NOT OBEYING REGULATIONS

 

[jannievanzyl]

1. https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/
When WhatsApp Discloses Information
WhatsApp believes, in good faith, is appropriate or necessary to enforce our Terms of Service, take precautions against liability, to investigate and defend itself against any third-party claims or allegations, to assist government enforcement agencies

The right approach. But we've also seen here on MyBB how seldom these entities really respond to these requests. Governments typically insist on in-country decryption.

2. How can they put a QoS on their service when they have very little control over the data connection? It's different for MNOs as they can add more towers, or add backhaul capacity or the like. WhatsApp have very little control over that.

And the inverse also applies. how can an MNO guarantee the response time of the OTT server. This is exactly the issues the regulator need to think about.

3. The company pays tax on their income in whatever country they are doing business. If they aren't following the law then SARS can go chase them up.

Which is exactly what these hearings are about.

 

[jannievanzyl]

These sound like the governments problems, not MNOs.

Exactly.

Which, as you would've noticed, is why the regulator is calling for hearings.

 

[jannievanzyl]

And what exactly are you and other MNOs doing to get those laws struck down so they don't apply to you either?

Really??

These interception laws exist for many good reasons. You want them struck down???

 

[Ockie]

Jannie....any plans on pushing RCS harder from Vodacom side or the MNO's coming together to do some kind of RCS standardized inter operable deployment to combat OTT players?

 

[jannievanzyl]

Jannie....any plans on pushing RCS harder from Vodacom side or the MNO's coming together to do some kind of RCS standardized inter operable deployment to combat OTT players?

Don't start me on RCS. Used to be my pet project.

Would have been the exact correct way for the GSM players to build a compelling response to the IM players. Turns out herding cats is much easier.

 

[icyrus]

Really??

These interception laws exist for many good reasons. You want them struck down???

Without question and doubt. One would think that after Snowden that it wouldn't be a surprising position.

 

[Ockie]

Don't start me on RCS. Used to be my pet project.

Would have been the exact correct way for the GSM players to build a compelling response to the IM players. Turns out herding cats is much easier.

So it is dead in the water and even with the boom in update with OTT services the mobile networks are still not interested in doing RCS with a competitive counter product? This leaves me confused. :wtf:

If the networks dont do it, Google will do it for them, and then even RCS have been taken away from MNO's as a counter product because Google would have done it, done it well and deployed it on Android built in. /sigh.

 

[sammyboi69]

Ok, let me see if I understand all of this.

1. Mtn & Vodacom are the biggest networks in SA
2. Whatsapp offers messaging and voice calls
3. This affects profit margins of both parties.

4. Apparently messaging apps need to abide SA rica laws. Even thou the government can request info from facebook, twitter, whatsapp etc.

5. These companies that have created these apps have to pay tax in SA.

Translation : Mtn and Vodacom are losing money,the rica legislation is an excuse and MTN/Vodacom suggesting Whatsapp pay tax is the biggest red flag.

How do you get the SA government to side with you? Hmm.....

Join the dots.

The government gains a new source of income and greedy networks hold onto their profits.

and i actually thought Vodacom/mtn gave a toss about my safety, due to them pressing the rica thing. Cry me a river.

 

[jannievanzyl]

So it is dead in the water and even with the boom in update with OTT services the mobile networks are still not interested in doing RCS with a competitive counter product? This leaves me confused. :wtf:

If the networks dont do it, Google will do it for them, and then even RCS have been taken away from MNO's as a counter product because Google would have done it, done it well and deployed it on Android built in. /sigh.

Won't say it's dead in the water, but it needs rescuing for sure.

IM players do not always stay dominant, just ask BBM and MixIt. But the WA base is now massive and they have FB to help.

 

[jannievanzyl]

Ok, let me see if I understand all of this.

1. Mtn & Vodacom are the biggest networks in SA
2. Whatsapp offers messaging and voice calls
3. This affects profit margins of both parties.

4. Apparently messaging apps need to abide SA rica laws. Even thou the government can request info from facebook, twitter, whatsapp etc.

5. These companies that have created these apps have to pay tax in SA.

Translation : Mtn and Vodacom are losing money,the rica legislation is an excuse and MTN/Vodacom suggesting Whatsapp pay tax is the biggest red flag.

How do you get the SA government to side with you? Hmm.....

Join the dots.

The government gains a new source of income and greedy networks hold onto their profits.

and i actually thought Vodacom/mtn gave a toss about my safety, due to them pressing the rica thing. Cry me a river.

Not sure how any of this regulation will help "networks hold onto their profits". Please explain?

If IM and other OTTs are regulated, it's not going to affect you in any way as a consumer. You'll still use it as you always do, buy your data and use it as you please.

How does it affect the MNOs profits?

Think you need to connect more dots.

 

[eddief1]

@jannie, simple question..How on earth did Voda & MTN not see that DATA would dominate mobile communications when the writing has been on the wall for over a decade?

I mean, when I was in primary school I made my first VoiP call over a rugby field using a PDA and Laptop, this was in the 90's...come on man

 

[semaphore]

Not sure how any of this regulation will help "networks hold onto their profits". Please explain?

If IM and other OTTs are regulated, it's not going to affect you in any way as a consumer. You'll still use it as you always do, buy your data and use it as you please.

How does it affect the MNOs profits?

Think you need to connect more dots.

I'm curious as to how MTN will regulate an application free on the play/ios store? Furthermore whats to stop FB / WA giving MTN et al. the middle finger?

 

[sammyboi69]

Not sure how any of this regulation will help "networks hold onto their profits". Please explain?

If IM and other OTTs are regulated, it's not going to affect you in any way as a consumer. You'll still use it as you always do, buy your data and use it as you please.

How does it affect the MNOs profits?

Think you need to connect more dots.

The tax thing is your trump card.

We dont know what is going to happen behind closed doors.

Mtn and Vodacom are the biggest operators in SA. If this nonsense is actually approved, then the likes of whatsapp might try to reach a compromise with the bigger networks. You guys are bitching about whatsapp not investing in your infrastructure, so what deal do you want to sign with Whatsapp.

Sugarcoat things as much as you want but I unfortunately see thru bull****.

 

[sammyboi69]

@jannie, simple question..How on earth did Voda & MTN not see that DATA would dominate mobile communications when the writing has been on the wall for over a decade?

I mean, when I was in primary school I made my first VoiP call over a rugby field using a PDA and Laptop, this was in the 90's...come on man

Vodacom is proud to celebrate the increase of data on their network but not when it comes to whatsapp it seems.