Which programming language should be taught in South African high schools?

[w1z4rd]

Python or php.

 

[Edwe]

Python or php.

PHP? To learn programming? That's just cruel...

 

[Hamster]

Bwhahaha!! ^

 

[Swa]

I'm sorry Swa, but we are developers. You clearly aren't because your posts are uninformed. I used to be a Delphi programmer many years ago. I then moved to C and then to C++ and then to C#. Us developers know that Delphi isn't popular. It's user base is declining year by year.

Here's a website that tracks programming language popularity:
http://blog.codeeval.com/codeevalblog/2015#.VWP9YUbiukw=

Here's another:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Oh only people working for someone else are developers. Got ya. All of those people working on open source, releasing programs for free, getting out of school and just learned Delphi but have a brilliant idea for a program are obviously not developers. Sounds almost as snobbish as the professional photographer argument.

It's odd that you do. We know that Delphi isn't popular and evidence supports us. You have seen some Delphi programs and think the larger programming community prefers Delphi. It just doesn't work that way. You can't say what developers prefer by basing it on a program or two that you saw. It's like if I go outside for the first time in years and I by chance see 3 red cars driving past and then think that the whole world must prefer red cars. And then go back inside and tell everyone on the internet that they are wrong, everyone obviously prefer red cars.

It's odd that you think the evidence supports your view. You have your analogy all wrong. Imagine you go out of your house and you see a white car, o.k. nothing much you think. Then you see another car and another right up to the tenth car all white. Suddenly a red car comes by before the pattern again of a lot of white cars followed by one or two red cars and then more white. You then go out into another street thinking it can't possibly be accurate but sure enough similar patterns. Now you have to go and investigate this so you go out into other suburbs and see similar patterns. Somewhere here and there you see other colors. So you go into the city. Here you see all colors, but this isn't enough to overturn your conclusion that the majority of people, not just city people, prefer white cars and secondly red cars.

We are the developers. We follow trends, stay up to date and work hard to not only stay relevant but to know what's going on. You know nothing John Sn... Swa.

You sound like the snobs.

Relative to what and according to whom? I have evidence which directly contradicts your claim: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/Delphi_Object_Pascal.html

Popularity of Delphi is currently at an all-time low, and even at the peak of its popularity in 2004, Delphi accounted for less than 6% of new code, whereas Java currently accounts for nearly 17%.

New code in what? How do these stats determine the preferences of independent programmers?

C# is unproven and as we saw with VB something can easily die if it's linked to a platform. It's dead in the water on non-Windows platforms. Java never achieved what it set out to achieve. Python you can push as a learning language sure. Delphi was pushed as a learning language so nothing wrong with that. The key here however is 'was' as you would need to build it up to where Delphi has already been built up. When will its code base finally be able to compete with Delphi?

Also see this about Delphi:
http://stevepeacocke.blogspot.com/2013/05/delphi-why-wont-it-just-die.html

 

[HideInLight]

Oh only people working for someone else are developers. Got ya. All of those people working on open source, releasing programs for free, getting out of school and just learned Delphi but have a brilliant idea for a program are obviously not developers. Sounds almost as snobbish as the professional photographer argument.


It's odd that you think the evidence supports your view. You have your analogy all wrong. Imagine you go out of your house and you see a white car, o.k. nothing much you think. Then you see another car and another right up to the tenth car all white. Suddenly a red car comes by before the pattern again of a lot of white cars followed by one or two red cars and then more white. You then go out into another street thinking it can't possibly be accurate but sure enough similar patterns. Now you have to go and investigate this so you go out into other suburbs and see similar patterns. Somewhere here and there you see other colors. So you go into the city. Here you see all colors, but this isn't enough to overturn your conclusion that the majority of people, not just city people, prefer white cars and secondly red cars.


You sound like the snobs.


New code in what? How do these stats determine the preferences of independent programmers?

C# is unproven and as we saw with VB something can easily die if it's linked to a platform. It's dead in the water on non-Windows platforms. Java never achieved what it set out to achieve. Python you can push as a learning language sure. Delphi was pushed as a learning language so nothing wrong with that. The key here however is 'was' as you would need to build it up to where Delphi has already been built up. When will its code base finally be able to compete with Delphi?

Also see this about Delphi:
http://stevepeacocke.blogspot.com/2013/05/delphi-why-wont-it-just-die.html

Unreal Engine 4 uses C#
UE4 is multi platform.

 

[Necuno]

id tech > *

 

[semaphore]

C# is unproven and as we saw with VB something can easily die if it's linked to a platform. It's dead in the water on non-Windows platforms. Java never achieved what it set out to achieve. Python you can push as a learning language sure. Delphi was pushed as a learning language so nothing wrong with that. The key here however is 'was' as you would need to build it up to where Delphi has already been built up. When will its code base finally be able to compete with Delphi?

C# has been around for over 15 years. Its proven. The fact they've pretty much opened the entire stack and the compiler and making head way into making it available for linux and mac shows its growing even faster.

You gonna need to back up your "compete" with delphi codebase statement, because it just shows your failure at understanding how development works. C# is evolving as new ideas come into play (i.e. advancements in the fields of computer science). As it currently stands C# is "complete" as it complies with the current language specification. Funny how embarcadero also thought this and started to support C# in their IDE.

And FYI you need stupid amounts of VCL's to get anything done with delphi.

I wont comment on what Java set out to achieve, but I am sure its happy in its current place. Running on over 4 billion devices.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Java doesn't run on coffee machines so Java has failed

And don't even get started on #Java++ that has been vapourware for years and still can't run an espresso machine

 

[Swa]

C# has been around for over 15 years. Its proven. The fact they've pretty much opened the entire stack and the compiler and making head way into making it available for linux and mac shows its growing even faster.

You can force something into an environment. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so. If we're going with time here as a matter of proven C++ beats it by 17 years and C by another 11 years.

You gonna need to back up your "compete" with delphi codebase statement, because it just shows your failure at understanding how development works. C# is evolving as new ideas come into play (i.e. advancements in the fields of computer science). As it currently stands C# is "complete" as it complies with the current language specification. Funny how embarcadero also thought this and started to support C# in their IDE.

Completeness is not a measure of success. If we go by "completeness" then C, C++, Delphi, Pascal in its iterations, and many other languages are equally complete. But ooh, I see we're talking about development again so ignore all those millions of competent programmers out there.

And FYI you need stupid amounts of VCL's to get anything done with delphi.

Read the article.

I wont comment on what Java set out to achieve, but I am sure its happy in its current place. Running on over 4 billion devices.

The amount of devices apps can run on isn't necessarily a measure of the language's success. Even on all those devices development in more native languages are preferred.

 

[Paul Hjul]

so lets go for COBOL, FORTRAN and BASIC

like all real programmers

 

[semaphore]

You can force something into an environment. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so. If we're going with time here as a matter of proven C++ beats it by 17 years and C by another 11 years.

Forcing? Do you even know what you're talking about? Clearly you do not. There is no "forcing" involved. The framework is adapted to run on multiple platforms.

If we go by "completeness" then C, C++, Delphi, Pascal in its iterations, and many other languages are equally complete.

I am not debating the other languages aren't complete. You are? Remember? You made the asinine claim that C#'s code base is not complete. Which I would still like you to clarify and backup with some facts. But I doubt you will Or even try to get across as sensible, as I already stated in accordance with its current design and version it is. But please go argue with Anders (https://twitter.com/ahejlsberg) I mean you seem to know more than the guy who designed the language.

But ooh, I see we're talking about development again so ignore all those millions of competent programmers out there.

Yeah sorry I have no idea what this comment is about. I am talking about language specifications and the completeness factor and you come in with this arb comment. Clearly you lack any new material so you're just regurgitating stuff said to a prior user in this thread.

The amount of devices apps can run on isn't necessarily a measure of the language's success. Even on all those devices development in more native languages are preferred.

Actually the defacto standard for Android development is java (subset running on top of dalvik). ( I am not using Iphone as an example here, as that would obviously be objective-c)

 

[semaphore]

so lets go for COBOL, FORTRAN and BASIC

like all real programmers

Our legacy app at my previous place runs on clipper. Its insanely fast, but also extremely limited in terms of what we wanted to achieve. As the language just did not support modern features that we wanted.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Our legacy app at my previous place runs on clipper. Its insanely fast, but also extremely limited in terms of what we wanted to achieve. As the language just did not support modern features that we wanted.

but as Swa says "If we're going with time here as a matter of proven C++ beats it by 17 years and C by another 11 years." so lets use only "proven" languages:
BASIC, FORTRAN and COBOL for the win

 

[semaphore]

but as Swa says "If we're going with time here as a matter of proven C++ beats it by 17 years and C by another 11 years." so lets use only "proven" languages:
BASIC, FORTRAN and COBOL for the win

Assembler beats those im afraid.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Assembler beats those im afraid.

as does the abacus ...

 

[semaphore]

FYI Anders designed Turbo Pascal and was the chief architect on Delphi. :>

 

[semaphore]

as does the abacus ...

Will need to get one now.

 

[Swa]

Unreal Engine 4 uses C#
UE4 is multi platform.

Typical weasel words. Not quite mate. UE4 is actually written mostly in C++ with, if I have it correct, some assembler thrown in. You can interface with C# and a number of other scripting languages but it's not quite the same thing.
There's some good insight here: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?2574-Why-C-for-Unreal-4

Forcing? Do you even know what you're talking about? Clearly you do not. There is no "forcing" involved. The framework is adapted to run on multiple platforms.

As I said you can force any framework on multiple platforms by "adapting" it. It seems to be trying to do what Java failed at.

I am not debating the other languages aren't complete. You are? Remember? /snip

You are mate. You introduced "completeness" wtf that even means only god knows.

Yeah sorry I have no idea what this comment is about. I am talking about language specifications and the completeness factor and you come in with this arb comment. Clearly you lack any new material so you're just regurgitating stuff said to a prior user in this thread.

Yes you came in here with "completeness." I am referring here to Solitude's use of developer. The snobbish idea that he and his opinion is worth more than all the millions of other competent programmers out there.

Actually the defacto standard for Android development is java (subset running on top of dalvik). ( I am not using Iphone as an example here, as that would obviously be objective-c)

By de facto standard you mean officially promoted? Now I know why the Apple boys keep bashing Android for its incompatibility issues.

but as Swa says "If we're going with time here as a matter of proven C++ beats it by 17 years and C by another 11 years." so lets use only "proven" languages:
BASIC, FORTRAN and COBOL for the win

Missing the conversation again?

 

[Paul Hjul]

Missing the conversation again?

there is no conversation to be missed
all that there is is you being a moron again and somebody (in the case semaphore) pointing it out on the direct merits while somebody else is just poking fun (in this case me)

there is discussions on this - filled with lovely puns and all - from 2 years ago:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/565485-Delphi-to-become-standard-for-NSC-Education
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...-MS-Office-exclusivity-in-SA-schools-reversed

The general gist pretty much remains the same. The pedagogical case for Pascal and procedural programming instruction is very easy to make a case for Pascal. Delphi however is a proprietary suit that moves away from the procedural programming virtues of Pascal and so the case really is easy to make for Free Pascal or the like. Moreover the case to teach Pascal on Pi's and so on all depreciate the Delphi case.

Delphi as a "visual" language is trumped by VB (VB 6 is still deployed on gabillions of systems - https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/jj133828.aspx, http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/06/09/0240204/why-visual-basic-6-still-thrives). And comparing Dephi to Visual Studio really betrays the crisis of Delphi - Delphi is a proprietary system that is really built to develop software for Windows workstations.

The support for Delphi by government is not driven by an education mission but rather by corruption of two forms - outright prospects of bribery and the massive textbook development routine attached to using Delphi.

Most of the guys popping into this thread are either hardcore (not as hardcore as Mel though) programmers who solve "computer science" problems or are in the rapid software development gig. Either approach sees how a genuine teaching of programming and software development theory at school has to embrace "programming habits" and an approach of learning multiple languages as circumstances evolve and permit. There isn't a "right" language with which to teach, although I'd argue there are wrong ones and going into a vendor locked development ecosystem that has a fractional presence in the market is really not the right way to go.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

PHP? To learn programming? That's just cruel...

View attachment 219534

OMG that's just too funny.