Whites leaving SA in droves

[bwana]

bwana why not move now to the US, surely it should be cut and dry.

It would be, but I've never expressed any interest in moving have I?

 

[Geriatrix]

The thought had occured to me that Skinner is not even overseas but could be some form of propagandist puppet paid by the ANC to spread propaganda on this forum.

The mods would be able to pick that up wouldn't they? Anyway, he seems legit to me.

 

[Turiko]

The mods would be able to pick that up wouldn't they? Anyway, he seems legit to me.

In theory yes... I presume that they have their eye on him. As it is they're censoring the BS he spews to some extent which is good... Kudos to the mods.

 

[metalcore]

Search gumtree and you find lots of amazingly low priced furniture items by these guys. They need quick sales.

From what I have heard from some people the novelty defnitelly does wear off, especially since the cost of living overseas is not cheap even if you are being paid more.

Its a sad that so many people are bailing on this lovely country.

 

[LoneGunman]

re 'bailing on this wonderful country'

Yeah, its something to do with facing your loved ones getting raped and/or being slaughtered like animals..

pity, that

 

[Turtle]

re 'bailing on this wonderful country'

Yeah, its something to do with facing your loved ones getting raped and/or being slaughtered like animals..

Oh ya that, but other than that it's really wonderful

 

[Obaht]

Well, we finally landed in Canada last week so we are part of those who have now left SA for good. We are all happy to have landed here, a family of 6. I won't say what skills we took with us because they are much needed in SA and I don't want people here to feel bad.

The reality is that we were fed up with the ANC. They could not manage their way out of a paper bag. With Zuma in control next year, it will be even worse. 'Nuff said!

Now that we are here my 3 brothers and their wives and families who still live in SA at the moment are now beginning to start the process. That is another 15 souls that SA does not want to help build the country.

Sorry folks but the grass is really greener over here, except when it is covered in snow of course.

 

[MacNabs]

You didn't read what I posted. I said: Cars and the advantages they offer.

Only public transport help you nothing when you've got lots of bags of groceries, or larger items like grills or A/V devices e.g. a TV, that you cannot carry around. And on the outskirts of cities, how do you want to get around? Bus stops are usually far apart from each other, how do you want to get to a place you want to go to, like visit a friend or a park?
Not to mention weather. You want to walk 2 km when it's pissing down? Or freezing cold?

Skinner you are missing the point big time boet! Your post is again laughable. Who ever said anything about getting rid of your car to replace it with public transport alone? Its possible to do this, but not feasible. I could actually survive without the car completely, in fact I do not rely on a car at all for getting to work and back every day, we have a car which the wife uses to drop kids off at school, do some shopping etc, it also comes in quiet handy over the weekends, busses ferries and trains don’t go everywhere! We have one car now, not two like we were forced to have in SA (Again more money saved as we not paying off two cars, let alone the insurance on the second car).

If however you are a single guy, there is no reason why you could not rely soly on the public transport system. Ever heard of home shopping? It works very well, many of the shops here in NZ will actually deliver and even come to your house and install for free. We use to make use of Pick n Pay’s online shopping in SA, which worked very well for us. Groceries were delivered next day. Now we do it ourselves.

Hehe okay, I was quoting the high-octane petrol, but R18 is not far off from R20. Point is, it is roughly double the cost of in SA.

As for your other points - fully agreed.

I went for a haircut now at a very basic student-run place. Just a basic haircut, I'm not even very pleased with it. €13. Which is more than R150

6-pack 340ml-each beer: €3,50
1 litle juice: €1,50
Quarter watermelon (of a ball the size of a football) (usually tastes crap): €1,-

You cannot simply just convert your rand to pounds/$ etc and then simply conclude that prices are more expensive elsewhere. What happens when the Rand looses more of its value in the next few months? Then things overseas become even more expensive for you on your Rands. Run your calculations again when the $ hits R10, then you will see how much more expensive things are overseas. Look at Zim, imagine how expensive a cup of coffee is in NZ/AUS when converting $ZIM. Actuality, by doing the conversions like you are doing you are just highlighting the problem in SA, and you are only experiencing the results of travelling on a weak currency.

Okay, let's take this further for an example in a safe suburb in the Western Cape, with 1 child going to a good public school.
School p/m: R500
Security: R0
Rates in Taxes: ?
Medical Aid: R700 pp
The number is different yes, but not by so much.
And let's add another item I'm sure you would dread: RENT. R4k p/m for a 3-bedroom house in a decent CPT suburb. So, how much would you pay for a month rent in London (city) per month? R4k / 15.0 = 266 Pounds?
.

As per above, you are making comparisons with a weak useless currency. Monopoly Money? Please give me an example of this safe suburb. R500 school fees per month for a good quality education? I don’t believe it. We pay $0 per month for a good quality education. Also we pay $0 for healthcare which is better than SA’s private health care system. Also stop comparing SA to London, the world is a bit bigger than London alone.

I have some Saffer friends in London, next to the river, their house (and many others) are broken into all the time, and stuff stolen out. Once the perpetrator even had the audacity to go into the bedroom where one was sleeping, in the dark, and steal his guitar & stuff from under his nose!!
.

Big difference, in SA they come in with Guns, in the UK its mostly youngsters, at the very worst you may be stabbed, but chances are high you and your family will live to tell the tale.

Percentage increase only makes sense if you take the starting costs of the two commodities to compare, into account.
4% increase on an apple that costs R2 in Europe vs 50% increase on an apple that costs 80c in SA. Still means that the apple in Europe will be more expensive in SA. (I have already mentioned this earlier but you didn't seem to have read it.) .

Oh no they don’t. 50% increase this year in SA, another 50% increase next year with no sign of it slowing. Sure, some things in Zim are probably still cheaper than in the UK, even with the high inflation figures, but it means nothing. The prices are still far out of reach to the majority of the population, and not so for the exact same item in a country where it is “more expensive”. SA is on the verge of a recession, and so are many other first world countries. However ask yourself where would you rather be when it hits?

There are enough suburbs in SA where it is safe enough. And even if you do pay, it is still Mickey Mouse money (R300 p/m).
.

Where? Would love to see some examples. To live the same lifestyle in SA where you have the same sense of security, ie on some expensive estate with state of the art security, you going to pay in excess of R3mil for something like that at least, prove me wrong. This equates to being more expensive than a place in say Auckland $450k, for a much safer lifestyle. In one of these safe estates, your levies alone are going to kill you every month, not to mention the new rates Besides, you not going to go to sit indoors all day, you got to get out, and that’s where you are just as much at risk as everybody else.

I will put up some photos of various suburbs in the Western Cape where there is not one palisade fence in the whole street, and I'm not talking about inside a security complex or a low-income area that can't afford the fence. .

People in the western cape are only starting to experience what Gauteng did about 10 years ago. In fact I see it as criminal’s paradises because of the lack of electric fencing etc in some suburbs. Maybe this older post of mine can shine some light onto the subject. Been there done that, bought the T Shirt, but it got stolen. Yea, go ahead and ask me which suburb I lived in, which road, and maybe which house. Tell me the house next door was safer.

 

[MacNabs]

From a previous post of mine:

Skinner, you always making out as if Cape Town is this place where crime simply does not exist, and its paradise on earth. Cape Town is still part of South Africa and it suffers from the same problems as the rest of the country, lousy public service (been to home affairs or any municipal office lately), no public transport, arrogant taxi drivers (Ever driven on the N1/N2 during peak hour traffic?), sprawling squatter camps with rampage crime, Eskom problems, public violence, racisim, general disrespect for the law, AA in the workplace (no promotions) etc etc.. Before I go any further, I lived in Cape Town and have since moved to NZ because of all of its problems, including out of control crime.

As for violent crime in Cape Town, does the name Brett Goldin ring any bells? He was hijacked after leaving Camps Bay and executed. The reason this made the news was probably only because he was a celebrity. Camps Bay is very safe!
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2118546,00.html

Yes crime is lower in Cape Town than the rest of the country in certain places, but its ridiculously high (A few places on the Atlantic seaboard where you can still be relatively safe (Camps Bay?) and even at times you can believe you are living in a first world country). Next time you drive past the Camps Bay police station, have a look at the sign on the front gate, ADT Armed response. That says a lot. I have three daughters, could I ever drop them off for a day at the beach by themselves? Would I let them go hiking by themselves in the beautiful mountains? Let them walk to school, ride bicycle down the road to the corner shop, drop them off for a day at Canal Walk shopping centre? The VNA Waterfront? No to all of those questions, Cape Town as beautiful as it is cannot be enjoyed. You are still left with the worry about the safety of your family. Wife taking the kids somewhere, breaking down in a bad area!!!??? If you live in CT, you cannot avoid those areas, you still have to drive through them. I shudder to think what would have happened to my daughters when they reached the age of going out at night, partying and enjoying life as teenagers should. What’s the use of depriving them of that? There is no way we would have allowed them out by themselves at night. Our kids now enjoy all of those things we were depriving them of in “safe” Cape Town.

I was an active member with neighbourhood watch in CT, was out every second weekend at ghastly hours just to protect the family and make our suburb a little safer! Why should I be doing that, why live in a country where the government cannot even provide safety for its own citizens? Even while doing neighbourhood watch, when on patrol I would fear for my families safety while I was just on the other side of the neighbourhood. As for some of my experiences in neighbourhood watch in Cape Town, I have seen it all. Decided to give it up when shots were fired during a chase of some suspected criminals. The neighbourhood watch cars, our own cars, started becoming targets while on patrol! We were putting ourselves at risk simply by patrolling the streets and trying to make them safer for everyone. We even had some guys handed over to the SAPS, next day they out walking the same streets again, doing their same ****. The SAPS would never come and help if we alerted them of possible suspects, same old excuses as everywhere else, no car, no petrol etc etc.

My own personal experience with crime in Cape Town, had the car broken into a few times, house broken into while we were sleeping. The buggers came through my daughter’s bedroom window while we were all sleeping. A stroke of luck on that night, daughter slept in our bedroom, something she only does very rarely. We decided to get the hell out, the camels back was now broken, It was no longer a case of “if it should happen to us”, it was “when is it going to happen to us?” We decided to not stick around and wait for that dreadful day. Stuff everyone that calls us cowards, or whatever you like. Once you have a family of your own, the future looks very bleak in SA, no matter if you staying in Cape Town or Boksburg, it’s the same. The safety of your family and their future in a normal society becomes top priority.

 

[McFly]

From a previous post of mine:
The safety of your family and their future in a normal society becomes top priority.

And that, my friends, is game, set and match. Well said MacNabs.

 

[Skinner]

Okay, I give up.

 

[alloytoo]

The safety of your family and their future in a normal society becomes top priority.

100%

 

[WisDumb]

Now that Skinner gave up... my turn

100%

You make truly great arguments, the lot of you...

but...

if ya wanna go, go
if ya wanna stay, stay..​

but know this, as resources get tight over the next 7 pre-peak oil years, the public reaction to the new guys on the block (wherever you're going) is going to be aggressive - after all where do you think you get the right to share their scant resources..

Xenophobia was bad - watching people lose all they had in a foreign country was a heart-breaker. Who will you have to fall back on, when the country you are going to does the same to you?

please, don't let me stop you, go.. but be aware, a pond is ripple free in the eye of a storm

 

[Frankie]

You make truly great arguments, the lot of you...

but...

if ya wanna go, go
if ya wanna stay, stay..​

And they all have the right to share their comments (including criticism) here.

but know this, as resources get tight over the next 7 pre-peak oil years, the public reaction to the new guys on the block (wherever you're going) is going to be aggressive - after all where do you think you get the right to share their scant resources..

Xenophobia was bad - watching people lose all they had in a foreign country was a heart-breaker. Who will you have to fall back on, when the country you are going to does the same to you?

please, don't let me stop you, go.. but be aware, a pond is ripple free in the eye of a storm

Show us where this has occurred in any of the civilised countries that emigrated South African's now call home.

 

[LoneGunman]

re 'Show us where this has occurred in any of the civilised countries that emigrated South African's now call home.'

Agreed. I often go out without bothering to lock my front door, I know the neighbors on all three sides of where I stay - their gardens are open and if I wanted to, I could stroll into their yards.
I came in this morning to my workspace, on the first floor - the window is wide open as usual (coz I'm a smoker)and it stays open 24/7 - and computers are sitting in here.

Been where I am, in the US, for over a year now - and have not heard of or spoken to anyone who's had any crime happen to them. No businesses have been robbed in the small town where I stay in, during this year.

There are no walls, no burglar bars, no panic buttons, no guard dogs, no fear. I can stroll home from the local bar, through the poorest area of town, and feel quite safe.

Sorry, but South Africa simply cannot provide any of these things anymore. And talking about South Africa as if its somehow 'fabulous' - when you can't experience any genuine safety and comfort (without high walls and paranoia) is nothing other than delusion.

I've spoken with mentally deranged people, who've concocted entirely believable but crazed world views, which are quite 'logical' to them - but obviously seriously deranged and not connected to the actual reality of the world.

Some of the folks who post on forum, and who try to suggest that their fearful prison-like daily lives in SA, are somehow 'nourishing' or 'good' and that their attempts
to pretend to still be living a positive and content life - remind me of the false constructs of crazy folks.

Hiding in fear each night, and writing on an internet forum about how 'great' the country you're hiding in fear is - is mental delusion at best.

What's the current stats on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? As I recall there was a recent survey done on SA children, and something like 23% of all SA children, are suffering from PTSD - that gives an idea of how harmful the current warped reality and paranoid violent life is like, in SA.

Don't be misled, its not all pleasant living outside SA - but for good personal growth, improved mental health, and the all important inherent concept of Safety, which all humans need to operate in, its a no brainer.

And its also delusional to think you can 'make a difference' - if all you're doing is hiding, and occasionally smiling at someone here or there.

'Making a difference' (altering SA's future) in some substantial way, can only happen if you a) take up arms b) go into politics c) devote yourself entirely to feeding/clothing the poor.

Otherwise, you're jerking off and pretending that your presence in SA has anything at all to do with 'staying to make a difference' - and more to do with your own fears at the unknown, or fear of failure overseas.

Like delusional belligerent frogs swimming around in slowly heating water, pretending that dealing with the heat is somehow good, and that the pot you're swimming in, is exactly where you want to be.
No it isn't.

 

[Turtle]

re 'Show us where this has occurred in any of the civilised countries that emigrated South African's now call home.'

Agreed. I often go out without bothering to lock my front door, I know the neighbors on all three sides of where I stay - their gardens are open and if I wanted to, I could stroll into their yards.
I came in this morning to my workspace, on the first floor - the window is wide open as usual (coz I'm a smoker)and it stays open 24/7 - and computers are sitting in here.

Been where I am, in the US, for over a year now - and have not heard of or spoken to anyone who's had any crime happen to them. No businesses have been robbed in the small town where I stay in, during this year.

There are no walls, no burglar bars, no panic buttons, no guard dogs, no fear. I can stroll home from the local bar, through the poorest area of town, and feel quite safe.

Sorry, but South Africa simply cannot provide any of these things anymore. And talking about South Africa as if its somehow 'fabulous' - when you can't experience any genuine safety and comfort (without high walls and paranoia) is nothing other than delusion.

I've spoken with mentally deranged people, who've concocted entirely believable but crazed world views, which are quite 'logical' to them - but obviously seriously deranged and not connected to the actual reality of the world.

Some of the folks who post on forum, and who try to suggest that their fearful prison-like daily lives in SA, are somehow 'nourishing' or 'good' and that their attempts
to pretend to still be living a positive and content life - remind me of the false constructs of crazy folks.

Hiding in fear each night, and writing on an internet forum about how 'great' the country you're hiding in fear is - is mental delusion at best.

What's the current stats on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? As I recall there was a recent survey done on SA children, and something like 23% of all SA children, are suffering from PTSD - that gives an idea of how harmful the current warped reality and paranoid violent life is like, in SA.

Don't be misled, its not all pleasant living outside SA - but for good personal growth, improved mental health, and the all important inherent concept of Safety, which all humans need to operate in, its a no brainer.

And its also delusional to think you can 'make a difference' - if all you're doing is hiding, and occasionally smiling at someone here or there.

'Making a difference' (altering SA's future) in some substantial way, can only happen if you a) take up arms b) go into politics c) devote yourself entirely to feeding/clothing the poor.

Otherwise, you're jerking off and pretending that your presence in SA has anything at all to do with 'staying to make a difference' - and more to do with your own fears at the unknown, or fear of failure overseas.

Like delusional belligerent frogs swimming around in slowly heating water, pretending that dealing with the heat is somehow good, and that the pot you're swimming in, is exactly where you want to be.
No it isn't.

Good summary!

 

[lion_fish]

Been where I am, in the US, for over a year now - and have not heard of or spoken to anyone who's had any crime happen to them. No businesses have been robbed in the small town where I stay in, during this year.

There are no walls, no burglar bars, no panic buttons, no guard dogs, no fear. I can stroll home from the local bar, through the poorest area of town, and feel quite safe.

Ditto. Its still an amazing feeling living in a city with almost no crime.

 

[Lord Anubis]

Leave JHB?????.... with the fresh smell of gunsmoke in the morning air, electric fences wizzing day and night, huge dogs howling all the time, pot holes big enough to be a gautrain exit, traffic to excersize your leg muscles, warm steamy urine, dripping off your post box, carguards and bums helping you load your groceries into your car, taxis hooting, strange blood curdling screams in the night, ahh the bliss....I could never leave this $#!+Hole....

 

[lion_fish]

Leave JHB?????.... with the fresh smell of gunsmoke in the morning air, electric fences wizzing day and night, huge dogs howling all the time, pot holes big enough to be a gautrain exit, traffic to excersize your leg muscles, warm steamy urine, dripping off your post box, carguards and bums helping you load your groceries into your car, taxis hooting, strange blood curdling screams in the night, ahh the bliss....I could never leave this $#!+Hole....

You make it sound so romantic...

 

[dantex]

I have spent the last hour reading through this thread and have to say there are a lot of constructive opinions being voiced by most people.
As always, we have people from both sides slinging mud, unavoidable I guess.
"He who slings mud, loses ground", love that quote .

What does disturb me, and is nothing new on this forum, is that we have some blatant, racist individuals who insist on bringing colour into the mix, making general statements regarding African countries and their ultimate destiny. Very easy to make those comments sitting behind a keyboard...
No one can stop you from posting I guess, but if that's all you can contribute to a discussion, all you are doing is showing us your ignorance and lack of humanity. Do your kids/future kids a favour, and graduate to the 21st century!

Back on point, people choose to emmigrate from SA for the following reasons
I believe:
* Crime, experienced or the general threat of crime. They are unwilling to pull the slack generated by the current administration and decide to move regardless of the costs (social or monetary) involved. Family and personal safety come first, and if they need to go to another country, they will.
* Political uncertainty. The current administration are a bunch of no-hopers, most wanting to cash in after the struggle, a generalisation, but we can all agree that this is the case. An now, the possibility of Zuma taking the reigns and plunging this nation into the abyss. Those of us looking into our crystal balls and not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, will leave at whatever cost, the colonial party is over!
* Economics and work prospects. These guys believe their skills will be rewarded more generously overseas or that they will be able to be employed in the first place, AA and BEE come into play here. They are pissed that some uneducated, unqualified schmuck is preferred, just because of skin colour.

Obviously, there are folks where all of these factors play a role...

Then there are those folk who are hedging their bets, believing that this country will not be another Zim and that we have the people to make this country work.

These people are generally more willing to become involved in community safety activities and to spend their hard earned dosh to live the lives they deserve. These people see the current state of AA, BEE, crime and political in-stability as temporary and that there are still good prospects for their country. Besides, we are a new nation, 15 years after liberation, still struggling with delivering on our perceived potential.
Do some of these people have an 'escape route'? Sure, but a lot of others do not and need to make do with the resources they have.

I do have an escape route, I have a European passport.

There are no winners or losers in this argument, just people making decisions based on their experiences, the information and advice available to them and what matters most to them as individuals.

In the end, these are personal decisions and no one has the right to knock them because they do not fit into their paradigm. It is difficult to stay objective when emotions are running high, but please try for the sake of those wanting to make critical decisions for their families, using this forum to gather some info.

Be informed, do your research, weigh up what is most important to you and your family. Once you have made you decision to stay or leave, do not try and force you point of view on to others and belittle those who do not agree with you. What worked for you, won't necessarily work for someone else, common sense needs to prevail.

Additionally, do not use this forum as a place to reinforce your decision and justify to yourself that you made the right decision and, ag-shame on those who have stayed behind or who have left. If you have advice to offer, do it in a constructive manner and try to compare apples-with-apples.

And to those racist twats patrolling these forums, piss off, your words are no good here.