Whites leaving SA in droves

[Hoof-Hearted]

Ps I don't have a problem with people that leave, but then they lose all right to comment.

I wonder what the situation would have been like today if that had been the attitude of our anc comrades in exile pre-'94

 

[Devill]

I wonder what the situation would have been like today if that had been the attitude of our anc comrades in exile pre-'94

Well then we would not have had a couple of the idiots in our igavameent....

I don't like having others fight the fight for me....

 

[gerhardd]

But then why not try a safer suburb?
Did you leave immediately after that or did you try a safer suburb or maybe another province or area in SA?
Which suburb was this BTW?

Again, why should I be the one to move around to safer suburbs? Why do I have to be the victim all the time? And what if the crime moves to the new suburbs as well, which it does? I see your advice about moving to Cape Town. Great plan, but I am sure crime will just move with it.

Dude, taxes are always unfair, no matter where you are in the world. Even in highly civilised 1st world countries, people complain about their taxes being abused, not visible, breaking roads, whatever. Some people even make a living of it, complaining about unfair taxes. Leaving SA for that reason will not make much difference, I can tell you that. Seriously.

Not sure which countries you are referring to, but where I am moving (NZ) the tax rate is LOWER than here. And you get all the bonuses. Healthcare, social security etc. And what are you talking about, not paying social taxes in SA? Who do you think fund the state hospitals, the welfare grants, etc? It is MY tax money. But what do you get for it? I would rather die on the streets than go to one of those hell hole state hospitals. You are basically double taxed here: you pay for state hospitals, as well as medical aid for private care. You pay for the SAPS, as well as private security firms. What's up with that? I can have a lower salary in NZ than in South Africa, and still get out more because I do not have to pay these additional costs.

And then we will not even start about the costs of things in 1st world countries. Do you think SA is the only country in the world where things get more expensive? Ha. You should see Europe / Australia / Americas. Skyrocketing at Mach 10 would be an understatement.

Right. Inflation in SA: 10%. Inflation in NZ: 4%. Hmmm.....

So what? What is the direct effect this has on you? Let's say you have a good job in SA, you live in a good house, have a car, your kids go to good schools, and the whole shebang. What do you care if the masses vote ANC? If you are happy in your current lifestyle, does it really matter?

That is exactly my issue with people in this country. We live in our compounds, totally disconnected from what is happening around us. We are no longer citizens! We have no say in what is happening, we are just living here. I can have a better life somewhere else, be a citizen and involved, at least be able to have a say in what is happening. I cannot be that here.

Personally I will wait until that day comes, if it does, and see it with my own eyes.
Until then, I will follow my 3 cornerstones and try make a better life for myself in SA. There is no reason why, if you want to emmigrate now, you should not be able to emmigrate later.

Ah! So you do have an escape plan....

 

[Skinner]

I tell you what, I'll stop calling you a git when you stop patronising me.

Deal.

Firstly I knew many people who were murdered in CT, offhand probably numbering about 50.

Which suburbs of Cape Town?

How long before they too are put out to grass at 30 or 35.

So what? What does it have to do with getting a job NOW?

Eskom is quite explicit, they will offer CONTRACTS to engineers they laid off. During the tenure of their contract they must train (usually a black female soc sci grad, and completely unsuited to the job) somebody to do their job. Then what do they do?

Who cares about then? Important is that a job now is a job, period.

(Once again) As I mentioned there are many engineers who couldn't get employment. It is these (and the above contracted engineers) who are leaving or intend to leave.

What would you say is the difference between those engineers that can get jobs in SA, and those that can't? Obviously there must be some difference. I'd like to hear what you think it is.

Tax: less tax period, VAT or PAYE. And I see the benefits. Reliable water, electricty, a brilliant roads infrastructure.

Tell me where you live and I'll find people that complain about the taxes there. For whatever reason.

I pay NO schoolfees and the govt schools my kids attend are on a par with the (very) expensive private school they attended in Cape Town. The state healthcare here is superb. The local state hospital resembles a 4 star hotel and the surgeons/doctors are (mostly) ex South Africans. Doesn't get any better.

If you are in the right industry in SA, you will be able to afford private healthcare in SA, which is of excellent quality, and send your child to a normal (non-private) school which is also of excellent quality. Unless you think there is something wrong with Paul Roos or Stellenberg or Bloemhof Hoer etc.

Did you know that the loadshedding has aged the distribution/switching infrastructure so much that the ENTIRE countries switching networks needs to be replaced?

Buy a generator.

Culture? I'm afraid the govts opinion differs from you. They don't give a toss about your culture, or their own for that matter

I don't care if they don't care about my culture. Neither does any foreign goverment in which you land yourself care about your (foreign-to-them) culture.

and they can and possibly will take it away from you.

How? Stop me from braaing in my own back yard on a Sunday afternoon?
Pull the plug on my DSTV when I want to watch rugby?
Come in my home and arrest all of us when we are singing Afrikaans songs at a family get-together?

I assume you've heard the expression "Those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it"? Well this govt has repeated every mistake made in post independence Africa. Why should the result be different?

The goverment seem to remember Apartheid every day, so by your theory, they will not repeat apartheid (or racial oppression) again. So even if you claim they are repeating racial oppression, at least it proves your theory false.

Experience: 20 years. Electronics (control and instrumentation), 10 years in nuclear. 15 years C/C++, SQL, micros, Delphi etc. I applied to the PBMR. No reply. I applied to Koeberg and their numerous contractors. Zip. Nada.

If you like I can send you a list of agencies in Cape Town (or JHB or wherever) that will get you a job (with those requirements) in no time. They worked for many buddies of mine. I normally don't use agencies since I have sufficient contacts in the industry that I directly rely on, but agencies are usually successful as well. Usually.

So how long do you remain when you are unable to earn money, you get shot at? Your house broken into, your car stolen and told you are lower than a snakes belly? How long do you beat your head against a wall?

You make it sound like the above is happening to everyone.
How about trying out my 3 suggestions? What do you think of that?

 

[Skinner]

i ran a free introduction to programming course for the black kids that worked for us for a while to try and motivate them to do something with thier lives other than being data capturers. i did my best to try and transfer my linux skills onto to my bee juniors. i would say i gave it a good try it.

Sounds good. But you neglected to mention what went wrong.

honestly i think we're just swimming upstream.

Then swim harder, soldier!

the responsibility of education and social upliftment lies on the government not the private sector.

But then try a different industry where you are not negatively affected by the fact that the responsibility of education and social upliftment lies on the government not the private sector!

imo the countries ills are far to complex to ever be solved in my lifetime.

... Of which are directly affecting you directly, personally, negatively that you cannot do anything more about to solve for yourself?

if you want to sacrifice your life for future generation well good for you. i would rather enjoy mine

Exactly. So why not try to solve your own problems?

 

[TooFastTim]

Thanks for the suggestions Skinner but not again. It's too late. Once bitten twice shy. I will not take that risk with young sons.

I share your sceptism of agencies. Earlier I mentioned three offers. All were from direct approaches.

Thing about employment is, it's nice to know where you'll be in 5-10-15 years time. It's all well living the here and now but when (and it will be when) the govt gets really nasty regarding AA, what then? Out of work with no possibility of employment.

I think the diff is that the guys I knew were all over 40. So if you put them out of work who teaches the next generation? So you lose the institutional memory. Also the age difference explains the difference in attitude. Under 35/40, you don't really care that much. Over that age with kids, big difference.

The history I was referring too was post independence Africas attitude to (white) skills. They all treated them with contempt and paid the price.

Culture: I see continued sniping at Afrikaans and Afrikaaners. The whole speel at UOFS was a direct attempt to teach the Afrikaaners whose boss and that they are (just) tolerated. You will see increased attempts to surpress the culture in the near future. I will not be at all surprised to see Afrikaans dropped frm the list of official languages and all broadcasts/publications in that language outlawed.

Most people I know have had a violent run-in at some time.

 

[Skinner]

Again, why should I be the one to move around to safer suburbs?

Stubborn as ever, like many other South Africans. If only that energy that is ploughed into the stubbornness, is rather diverted to a positive go-getter attitude...

Wouldn't you call moving to a safer suburb IN SA, easier (and cheaper) than moving to a while different country altogether??

Why do I have to be the victim all the time?

Moving to a different suburb does not make you a victim.
Staying in the same unsafe suburb and getting hit by crime, does.

And what if the crime moves to the new suburbs as well, which it does?

It does? Where?

I see your advice about moving to Cape Town. Great plan, but I am sure crime will just move with it.

Where? Show me.
Show me that the increases of crimes in certain suburbs of CPT are due to the criminals moving away from where they formerly practised crime, to those new areas.

Not sure which countries you are referring to, but where I am moving (NZ) the tax rate is LOWER than here.

Including all the salary taxes and social taxes, what is the rate / % scale?

And you get all the bonuses.

In many 1st world countries, bonuses are taxed even heavier than your normal regular salary. Are you aware of that? What is the status of this in NZ? Have you checked?

Healthcare, social security etc. And what are you talking about, not paying social taxes in SA? Who do you think fund the state hospitals, the welfare grants, etc? It is MY tax money. But what do you get for it?

1) Who cares what you get for it, if you are in the right industry it should not make much different to your take-home pay.
2) It is still less than many 1st world countries (waiting for your answer on tax rates in NZ).

I would rather die on the streets than go to one of those hell hole state hospitals.

Then don't. Pay R700 max per month for a good hospital plan in SA, and you go to a private hospital.

By the way, are you sure you don't have to pay ANYTHING for health care in NZ? No contribution? No medicine? No admin fees??

In many 1st world countries, if you have a work, you MUST PAY for health care. And it ain't cheap!

You are basically double taxed here: you pay for state hospitals,

Which is lower than what you would pay in many 1st world countries.

as well as medical aid for private care. You pay for the SAPS, as well as private security firms. What's up with that?

Minus the costs and stress of relocating & emmigrating to the new country, which can amount to thousands and thousands of dollars / euros / whatever. Your rands are worthless there.

I can have a lower salary in NZ than in South Africa, and still get out more because I do not have to pay these additional costs.

And the costs of living in NZ? Compared to SA?

Right. Inflation in SA: 10%. Inflation in NZ: 4%. Hmmm.....

A consumer product that costs 1000 currency units in NZ inflated by 4% is still more expensive than a consumer product that costs 500 equal currency units in SA inflated by 10%. Do some comparisons and you'll really see that SA is still cheaper for many products by a long shot. Even with the 10% inflation.

That is exactly my issue with people in this country. We live in our compounds, totally disconnected from what is happening around us. We are no longer citizens!

I fail to spot this negative aspect in many towns in SA.

We have no say in what is happening, we are just living here. I can have a better life somewhere else, be a citizen and involved

Citizenship yes, which can be attained with great difficulty in 1st world countries after many years. Whoopee.

at least be able to have a say in what is happening.

I found that most 1st world people have little interest in what a foreigner from a 3rd world country has to tell about what is going on in the world, their home country, or worst of all the country that they are in.

Ah! So you do have an escape plan....

Of course. Why not?

 

[Toffee]

I have sympathy with people emigrating, particularly if it is for employment reasons in the main. It is a tough choice. For those affected directly by crime I think the decision is a lot easier. The thing I would most miss about SA is the people. We are mostly very social and friendly and it is hard to find the same thing overseas. I do not have a problem with people who have left still commenting, provided the motive is good, the points balanced and not only about the negative.

I do believe there is still hope for SA and that we can do something about it. It is an exciting country to live in. THe person who says he knew about 50 people who have been killed in Cape Town must hang around in the wrong crowds. I have lived here since 1969 and only know two people who were killed, one by Pagad.

 

[PeterCH]

I think people must realise one thing. Emigration is tough, its not easy, even if you are well qualified and can find a well paying job. The benefits you will reap are there, SA
is just worse off economically, the healthcare is of a higher standard as is the policing,
emergency services, and of course there is less crime.

The real benefits come for your children who will go to SAFER schools, with better
standards and will be able to attend overall better universities than in SA.
(Not to say that SA lecturers are idiots, but the funding is here just so bad
compared to the world out there.)

Looking at my friends, all but one visit SA for holidays, and he visits to check
up on his parents. The others are too absorbed in their work - and their
motivation and happiness levels are so much higher than when they worked in
SA.

The real benefits are to your children. So if you don't mind getting out of your
comfort zone, do it, your children after all should be the most important things
in your life (I would think).

 

[TooFastTim]

Trust me on this one Skinner. It's a LOT cheaper in NZ than SA. Bonusses are taxed at the recipents highest rate (3 tax rates in NZ, highest is 39%). GST (actually VAT) 12.5%. The only big expense here is property but that's coming down as it is in SA and for the same reasons. However the govt here isn't threatening to pass legislation that will effectively, make private property a thing of the past.

State healthcare is FREE. GRATIS. Ditto education etc.

Toffee, those people were murdered in suburbs like Constantia, Rondebosch, Tamboerskloof, Edgemead, Milnerton, Table View etc. Not exactly the wrong side of the tracks.

 

[Skinner]

Thanks for the suggestions Skinner but not again. It's too late. Once bitten twice shy. I will not take that risk with young sons.

I have no problem with that.

Thing about employment is, it's nice to know where you'll be in 5-10-15 years time. It's all well living the here and now but when (and it will be when) the govt gets really nasty regarding AA, what then? Out of work with no possibility of employment.

Come on, get real. You and I are both in IT / engineering. It is a highly specialised field and our b-utts are in the butter. Always will be (bar any more 9/11 episodes but still it didn't go down that bad). Regardless of where in the world we find ourselves in. Even in SA. Why care where you are in 5/15 years? You could still be programming or you could be a PM / TM / Technical Director. If it really goes that bad and SA's IT market falls to a slump, then we simply move to a different country and get that same PM / TM position. It does work and it is possible. What matters is now, and at the moment, SA still have many opportunities for you and me. The fact that I have many, many friends and contacts that rack it in in those industries in SA is solid testiment to my claim.

I think the diff is that the guys I knew were all over 40. So if you put them out of work who teaches the next generation? So you lose the institutional memory.

Who cares? You teach yourself. Or you go overseas for some years and have them teach you, and then return to SA with your new skills. That's what I did.

Also the age difference explains the difference in attitude. Under 35/40, you don't really care that much. Over that age with kids, big difference.

If you are in the right industry, you will have a job that will pay well enough for you and your family. Even in SA.

Culture: I see continued sniping at Afrikaans and Afrikaaners. The whole speel at UOFS was a direct attempt to teach the Afrikaaners whose boss and that they are (just) tolerated.

But what does this have to do with the guy that braais on a Sunday afternoon with his family and speaks Afrikaans? Unless you were employed at UOFS or were one of the victims / suspects, I do not see why one should care or worry about this.

You will see increased attempts to surpress the culture in the near future.

I will wait and see that for myself. I do not care about the future.

I will not be at all surprised to see Afrikaans dropped frm the list of official languages

So what if it does? We speak Afrikaans in our circles or at work or with family, that is what matters, that is what is close to the heart. I don't care about their lists of official languages or whatever. F*** them!!

and all broadcasts/publications in that language outlawed.

Highly unlikely, since these are commercial enterprises (Kyknet, Die Burger, etc.). And still, unless it actually happens today, it doesn't affect me.

Most people I know have had a violent run-in at some time.

Well most people I know, didn't. Statistically that conforms; some people would have, some people would not have. No problem or issue there. Still doesn't mean that every person in SA will get raped / killed.

 

[Skinner]

I have sympathy with people emigrating, particularly if it is for employment reasons in the main. It is a tough choice. For those affected directly by crime I think the decision is a lot easier. The thing I would most miss about SA is the people. We are mostly very social and friendly and it is hard to find the same thing overseas. I do not have a problem with people who have left still commenting, provided the motive is good, the points balanced and not only about the negative.

I do believe there is still hope for SA and that we can do something about it. It is an exciting country to live in. THe person who says he knew about 50 people who have been killed in Cape Town must hang around in the wrong crowds. I have lived here since 1969 and only know two people who were killed, one by Pagad.

Well said, especially the last point. Drug and gang-related crimes and killing are rife in CPT, but only in certain suburbs. If you are a good person (like me) and don't mix with bad things like drugs and gangs, and mind that you live in a safe suburb in CPT, I don't see anything horrible happening to you.

 

[PeterCH]

Not sure which countries you are referring to, but where I am moving (NZ) the tax rate is LOWER than here. And you get all the bonuses. Healthcare, social security etc. And what are you talking about, not paying social taxes in SA? Who do you think fund the state hospitals, the welfare grants, etc? It is MY tax money. But what do you get for it? I would rather die on the streets than go to one of those hell hole state hospitals. You are basically double taxed here: you pay for state hospitals, as well as medical aid for private care. You pay for the SAPS, as well as private security firms. What's up with that? I can have a lower salary in NZ than in South Africa, and still get out more because I do not have to pay these additional costs.

You are so right. People in France and Sweden moan about high taxes,
but universities and hospitals are FREE! Yes FREE!

So you pay zilch when you get diabetes and need an expensive
insulin pump plus refills and diabetologist follow up 3 monthly.

Your kids go to uni for free. You don't need to pay.

Tax is the UK is 25% and even 22% if you're a professional and
incorporate yourself. In the States tax rates are even lower,
with the current Federal Govt tendency to cut taxes even
further.

Oh and let's not start on the internet accessibility and phone call
costs.

In SA you pay 38% tax, in Sweden you pay ?40%-50% but
you get everything for free. In SA you don't get anything
back for your tax, you must pay for medical aid (even if
you go to a state hospital they will charge you, a little less
than private healthcare but still substantially ON TOP
of your income tax/vat/petrol tax/capital gains/TV licence/alarm
system radio transmitter licence fee/car disk licence/Municipal rates).

 

[jambai]

Just one thing maybe off topic .Who do you support when springboks play aus or nz if you emigrated there.I would find that tough.I dont have problem with australia or nz or dont mind both types of people as think very similar to saffas.

 

[Skinner]

I think people must realise one thing. Emigration is tough, its not easy, even if you are well qualified and can find a well paying job. The benefits you will reap are there, SA
is just worse off economically, the healthcare is of a higher standard as is the policing,
emergency services, and of course there is less crime.

The real benefits come for your children who will go to SAFER schools, with better
standards and will be able to attend overall better universities than in SA.
(Not to say that SA lecturers are idiots, but the funding is here just so bad
compared to the world out there.)

Looking at my friends, all but one visit SA for holidays, and he visits to check
up on his parents. The others are too absorbed in their work - and their
motivation and happiness levels are so much higher than when they worked in
SA.

The real benefits are to your children. So if you don't mind getting out of your
comfort zone, do it, your children after all should be the most important things
in your life (I would think).

But there are many schools (public) in SA with still very good standards and very safe. Take any couple of Model C or D schools in the Western Cape. Tell me, each and every one of them is of insufficient standard, and horribly unsafe? Can you really tell me that?
Same goes for the universities.

Did you know, than in London, the kids will spit on the teacher, swear at her, destroy learning aids in the class, and generally are horrible? And they cannot lift a FINGER to do anything about it. In SA there is at least still detention

 

[Frankie]

I see we have the twat and his lala land comments back

 

[Sarakael]

Skinner please don't forget to turn the lights out when you are the last to leave. If you haven't been murdered by then

 

[Skinner]

You are so right. People in France and Sweden moan about high taxes,
but universities and hospitals are FREE! Yes FREE!

NO! If you have a work, you must PAY for health care!!!!!!
Your employer does contribute part of it, though.

Your kids go to uni for free. You don't need to pay.

No! Some things you do need to pay for, uni is not just class fees. And they work out how much you must pay, depending on the income of the parents! The higher the income, the more the child must pay!!!

Tax is the UK is 25% and even 22% if you're a professional and
incorporate yourself.

UIF?
Social pension fund? (note the word social)
Health care?
Not forgetting the fact that London is the 2nd most expensive city in the world!!

In the States tax rates are even lower,
with the current Federal Govt tendency to cut taxes even
further.

Yeah, and it's a piece of cake to immigrate into the US.
NOT.

In SA you pay 38% tax

Which income bracket are you referring to, with reference to the 1st world countries you also quote?

In SA you don't get anything
back for your tax

So what? I know many people that live comfortably on their incomes in SA.

you must pay for medical aid (even if
you go to a state hospital they will charge you, a little less
than private healthcare but still substantially ON TOP
of your income tax/vat/petrol tax/capital gains/TV licence/alarm
system radio transmitter licence fee/car disk licence/Municipal rates).

R700 p/m for a hospital plan to a private hospital in SA is not money.
Come on.
And the rest of the examples you give are all mickey mouse money.
By the way, do you want to know what cost car disk licence yearly renewals, TV licences and fuel in most 1st world countries? Make sure you are sitting down before I tell you.

 

[Skinner]

Skinner please don't forget to turn the lights out when you are the last to leave. If you haven't been murdered by then

I thought there would be no lights, due to load shedding?

 

[TooFastTim]

I will wait and see that for myself. I do not care about the future.

I think that sums it all up. I do.

I was bitten and badly. I want to know that the 10 years I spent going to night classes getting a masters will be used.

You're wrong about the institutional memory. There are many little tricks that you can't pick up from a book but they need to be passed down to you. Engineering is a lifelong apprenticeship and you can always pick up that little snippet from another guy who's a bit longer in the tooth than you are. Go overseas to pick up those skills? Possibly. Leave when you are 40, spend 5 years in, where ever, kids are settled. Wife's made a new circle of friends. You won't come back.

What about bringing people in from overseas? Back to the contract worker argument again. It doesn't work. Ask Congo or Zambia (although Zambia is now encouraging white immigration, particularly farmers), ask Nigeria. You need people who are commiited to the country.

What a lot of people forget is that those people who have left and who are leaving, most have kids. Those kids will, like their parents, probably end up equally skilled. Not some thing that can be said for the masses in SA where on 2,500 of some 400,000 matriculants (open to correction here) leave school with HG maths and science. And the govt says it will turn out 10,000 engineers a year? Where's the feedstock coming from? Unless they lower the standard beyond what would be considered acceptable.

Technical director? A white male...surely you jest. What about BEE?

Oh schools, schools here (well the ones my sons attend) are superb. Kids are well mannered and hard working. Discipline here is outstanding. Sure there are schools where this is not the case but they are the exception.

I think, from your previous post that your committment to SA is very superficial. It's great as long as I'm doing fine and I'll bail if it gets rough. Isn't that a little hypocritical? I tried and I reached the end of my tether so I bailed. No difference.

Skinner, SA's economy is in very bad shape, much worse than the press or the govt is letting on. SA's debt (personal and state) is way out of control (in the case of state debt, it exceeds that debt run up under the nats) and what you are seeing now is the thin end of the wedge. At the moment the work is there but it takes time for things to filter down and it will dry up. What if that property legislation is passed (I see it's been deferred)? What will that do to the economy? Think long and hard. Because you should start thinking about the long term effects of the govts legislation. It WILL effect you. Sooner or later.