Whites leaving SA in droves

[jambai]

My question is even when we where in a bull market is ,where is the growth of sa going to come from.The culture of Africa is one that is not conduisive for economic growth.Whites leave we have illegal immigrants taking their place.Someone that is positive about future of sa please explain to me how they see the future with regards to skills shortage ,education ,creation ofnew business etc.I am not negative but trying to take realistic view.Yes the aparheid gov is to blame for some of africans mentality but where are the go getters in the economy going to come from.

 

[Skinner]

My question is even when we where in a bull market is ,where is the growth of sa going to come from.The culture of Africa is one that is not conduisive for economic growth.Whites leave we have illegal immigrants taking their place.Someone that is positive about future of sa please explain to me how they see the future with regards to skills shortage ,education ,creation ofnew business etc.I am not negative but trying to take realistic view.Yes the aparheid gov is to blame for some of africans mentality but where are the go getters in the economy going to come from.

From people like ME! I am a go-getter!

 

[TooFastTim]

but where are the go getters in the economy going to come from.

Particularly when aforementioned go-getter is informed that he must take on a "partner". Govt interefers in business left, right & centre. Levies here, quotas there, "partners" everywhere. I certainly wouldn't risk it.

 

[alloytoo]

My question is even when we where in a bull market is ,where is the growth of sa going to come from.The culture of Africa is one that is not conduisive for economic growth.Whites leave we have illegal immigrants taking their place.Someone that is positive about future of sa please explain to me how they see the future with regards to skills shortage ,education ,creation ofnew business etc.I am not negative but trying to take realistic view.Yes the aparheid gov is to blame for some of africans mentality but where are the go getters in the economy going to come from.

Here's your big question:

Who's paying the tax, Income tax and consumption taxes, (VAT, Fuel Levy, bank withdrawl levies etc).

Answer: Irrespective of colour The Middle class.


Question: who's leaving for foreign shores, irrespective of colour

Answer : The Middle Class.

Question: What do they take with them?

Answer: about 200 years of accumulated wealth in addition to the bulk of the countries skills.

 

[alloytoo]

Just one thing maybe off topic .Who do you support when springboks play aus or nz if you emigrated there.I would find that tough.I dont have problem with australia or nz or dont mind both types of people as think very similar to saffas.

support the country whose citizenship you hold?

 

[PeterCH]

NO! If you have a work, you must PAY for health care!!!!!!
Your employer does contribute part of it, though.


No! Some things you do need to pay for, uni is not just class fees. And they work out how much you must pay, depending on the income of the parents! The higher the income, the more the child must pay!!!


UIF?
Social pension fund? (note the word social)
Health care?
Not forgetting the fact that London is the 2nd most expensive city in the world!!


Yeah, and it's a piece of cake to immigrate into the US.
NOT.


Which income bracket are you referring to, with reference to the 1st world countries you also quote?


So what? I know many people that live comfortably on their incomes in SA.


R700 p/m for a hospital plan to a private hospital in SA is not money.
Come on.
And the rest of the examples you give are all mickey mouse money.
By the way, do you want to know what cost car disk licence yearly renewals, TV licences and fuel in most 1st world countries? Make sure you are sitting down before I tell you.

I'll have to tell my French friends and family that they are bolloxing me.
I'll also have to tell my cousin who lives and works in Brussels, the same
thing, and my 2 cousins who are permanently in London.
He quoted me some ridiculously low figure for a specialist consulation
in Belgium (oh he has a health plan too, less than a 100 Euro
per month and it pays dental, glasses, etc).

One of my friends is a gastroenterologist in Germany, I guess he's bolloxing me too,
oh get this he regularly takes off 3 months per year unpaid leave to windsurf
in Big Bay and flies his 4 person family down here. I wish I could
afford to take 3 months upaid leave to bugger around on a surfboard,
even in my own backyard.

The costs of 1st world health care in Europe are far less than here.
R700 is real money for most people when you earn R4000 per month
fixed income.

Somehow I've never had a foreign friend or family member tell me that they
had anyone spit on them at school or that they or their classmates did that to teachers either.
Contrast that to local schools in SA where you're bound to be shot by visiting gangstas
from the Cape Flats. I'm talking about schools where I attended before where
the biggest crime before was when someone broke a window back in the 90's.
Now the kids regularly get mugged on their way back and forth and its a good
area too. Lovely.

As for 38% tax that's what I get taxed, in the UK that comes to 22%.
I think my Parisian cousin and his French wife pay - 40 EU for telephone, cable TV and unlimited 40Mbs internet - that's what she quoted me. That's
in a decent part of Paris. Their fees for water, elec and gas were also low.
Compare that to R7000 per month I pay here for DSTV, SABC, Rates, Elec, Water, Telephone, Internet etc.

Mr Skinner you are confused. I suggest you explore Vienna more, I stayed there for a year back in 1982/83.
It was beautiful then, it must still be a sight for sore eyes.

 

[jambai]

Here's your big question:

Who's paying the tax, Income tax and consumption taxes, (VAT, Fuel Levy, bank withdrawl levies etc).

Answer: Irrespective of colour The Middle class.


Question: who's leaving for foreign shores, irrespective of colour

Answer : The Middle Class.

Question: What do they take with them?

Answer: about 200 years of accumulated wealth in addition to the bulk of the countries skills.

Exactly my point well said at least someone understand my post.I made it sound like race but it is not race its mentality.thats is where africa sees its g@t

 

[alloytoo]

Exactly my point well said at least someone understand my post.I made it sound like race but it is not race its mentality.thats is where africa sees its g@t

Precisely, you're going to be left with the those making obscene amounts of money, and those who have nothing.

That's unstable and unsustainable.

 

[dlk001]

Kind of sad, but understandable

Its sad but good thing is that they are leaving and will be happier! I wish them all the best.

 

[Kimosabe]

people are not willing to trust!! What do you think new zealand or Australia is going to look like in 20yrs time? Are the Mauri's going to do the same?

Idoit, there are less than a million Maoris in NZ. There are more white people than Locals.

 

[Peder]

Idoit, there are less than a million Maoris in NZ. There are more white people than Locals.

thanx the pleasure is all mine

It takes one man to throw over a government, and even though they are soo little they can still make a mess if they want to.

Edit: and as usual the "westernised" people think they may do what they like! and treat the maori's like apes!

 

[Geriatrix]

Its sad but good thing is that they are leaving and will be happier! I wish them all the best.

I agree.
If you think its the best thing for your family and yourself you should definitely go.
The world is a pretty big and diverse place, I hope to go see some of it myself next year. And if I find a place I feel I fit in better, I might just stay.

 

[alloytoo]

thanx the pleasure is all mine

It takes one man to throw over a government, and even though they are soo little they can still make a mess if they want to.

Edit: and as usual the "westernised" people think they may do what they like! and treat the maori's like apes!

Do they? Or are you just making an assumption. (Actually the entire populace gets treated like primates)

Last I looked New Zealand was a stable democracy, with a cosmopolitan populace.

 

[Skinner]

I'll have to tell my French friends and family that they are bolloxing me.

Mr Skinner you are confused. I suggest you explore Vienna more, I stayed there for a year back in 1982/83.
It was beautiful then, it must still be a sight for sore eyes.

Oh really, you think I'm confused.
You do not believe me when I say that health care in France is NOT for free.

From: http://www.moving-to-france-made-easy.com/french-health-insurance.html

Once you have lived in France for at least 3 months, you are eligible for French state health coverage (CMU or Coverture Maladie Universelle). The cost is based on your previous calendar year's income.

To apply for CMU, you must go in person to the local CPAM (Caisse Primaire Assurance Maladie) office to pick up an application. Be prepared to provide the following:

- proof supporting that you have lived in France for at least 3 months (EDF statements or France Telecom statements).

- copy of passport and carte de sejour

- proof supporting income for the past calendar year (payslips, bank statements, etc.)

The cost (cotisation) is based on annual income thresholds, after tax allowances, as follows:

single person 6,677 Euros

couple 9,604 Euros

3 persons 11,525 Euros

4 persons 13,446 Euros

Thereafter, add 2,531 Euros for each additional person.

This is not how much the insurance will cost you. This is the income "threshold". You must pay 8% of any income OVER the threshold for your family situation.

If your income is in excess of the threshold corresponding to your family situation, then you pay 8% of the amount over the threshold. You are allowed to pay by trimesters.

The coverage is generally 70% (obstetric care is 100%), and there is no deductible. Most people purchase a private health insurance policy called a "mutuelle de sante" that brings the coverage up to 100%. Again, there is no deductible. The cost fo the mutuelle is not based on income.

Coverage is obligatory for wage earners.

From: http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=197

Healthcare in France - An Introduction

Health - nurse - hospitalDespite being expensive to maintain - the deficit is currently round about 6 billion euros - and under constant funding pressure the French healthcare service is still one of the best in the world, offering a wide choice of general practitioners and healthcare specialists. For those who have experience of the health system in France and, for example, the UK, the contrast in standards can be startling.

The French healthcare system is funded by the working population. French employees pay about 20 per cent of their gross salary – the self-employed pay even more - deducted at source, to fund the social security system, known as Sécurité sociale. A significant proportion of this money goes towards public healthcare, to which every legal resident of France has access under the law of universal coverage called la Couverture maladie universelle.

From: http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=1093

Q. You say that on average reimbursement is 70%. Can you expand on this?

Different treatments attract different rates of reimbursement. These are the reimbursements as a percentage of the tarif de convention:

GP/specialist: 70%
Major surgery: 95%
Minor surgery: 80%
Pregnancy/childbirth: 95-100%
Prescribed medicines: 65% (white label); 35% (blue label); 15% (orange/yellow label)
X-rays: 70%
Routine dental: 70%
Nursing care at home: 70%

From: http://www.nchc.org/facts/France.pdf

What does health care cost in France?
The national health service sets fees to see different types of doctors. It is more expensive to see a specialist than a general practitioner, and it costs more to have a home visit and even more to see a doctor at night, on Sundays, or on public holidays.

From: http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/bb2France.php

To qualify for health cover it is necessary to have paid a social insurance premium calculated as a percentage of income. In addition, fees are payable at the time of use and can be claimed back from the insurer or waived for the poor (people earning less than 6,600 euros per year do not have to contribute).

So, you were saying?

 

[Turtle]

I'll have to tell my French friends and family that they are bolloxing me.
I'll also have to tell my cousin who lives and works in Brussels, the same
thing, and my 2 cousins who are permanently in London.
He quoted me some ridiculously low figure for a specialist consulation
in Belgium (oh he has a health plan too, less than a 100 Euro
per month and it pays dental, glasses, etc).

Yup it's basically all tax-funded so a local pays nothing or nearly nothing to consult a doctor. You just go and give them your ID number. Note income tax is very high in Belgium though, around 55%. But you don't need a separate medical aid (it's basically socialised medical insurance and healthcare). And a much smaller percentage of your taxes gets pissed away on corruption, so you get better value for money for the taxes you do pay.

One of my friends is a gastroenterologist in Germany, I guess he's bolloxing me too,
oh get this he regularly takes off 3 months per year unpaid leave to windsurf
in Big Bay and flies his 4 person family down here. I wish I could
afford to take 3 months upaid leave to bugger around on a surfboard,
even in my own backyard.

I know a dentist in the UK who takes off a lot of time every year too, IIRC a full month or two ... basically it works something like for every patient he sees he gets paid X from the government, but there is a quota (max per year), and they don't get paid above that quota, so once he's seen Y patients for the year he doesn't really earn more so he just closes shop.

The costs of 1st world health care in Europe are far less than here.

Well, it's difficult to tell really, because it's mostly bundled into your taxes. You ARE still paying. But I think it is most likely still lower for several reasons.

As for 38% tax that's what I get taxed, in the UK that comes to 22%.
I think my Parisian cousin and his French wife pay - 40 EU for telephone, cable TV and unlimited 40Mbs internet - that's what she quoted me. That's
in a decent part of Paris.

Yeah Internet and cable TV are very cheap in Europe, the Internet is FAR faster, has much better caps (when they have caps at all), and TV has plenty of channels ... in the UK you get about 30 FREE TV channels - yup, if you pay NOTHING (except a once-off fee for some conversion box thing) you automatically get 30 TV channels. If you subscribe (some cheap fee, I can't remember what, I think about R150 or R200 / mo) you can get like 150 channels. And it's actually current stuff, not last year's shows or the year before's. (*Edit* on the downside of course, in the UK and parts of Europe you're likely to live in something about the size of a shoebox, but at least you have good TV and Internet to distract you from that! And the weather is sh-tty ...)

 

[Turtle]

Question: who's leaving for foreign shores, irrespective of colour

Answer : The Middle Class.

Question: What do they take with them?

Answer: about 200 years of accumulated wealth in addition to the bulk of the countries skills.

200 years!?? I think that's a bit of exaggeration. When I started working I had basically nothing - the sum of my assets were a 20 year old beat-up "student car" (that I anyway earned the money for in the first place doing odd jobs) and a negative bank balance (as I started with credit card debt in the beginning). If I emigrate now I certainly won't be paying a fortune to ship my little bit of crappy hand-me-down furniture (it'll cost more to ship than it's worth) ... the only "accumulated wealth" will be the tiny bit of savings I earned from scratch working over the past ten years - which incidentally is far less than I could've saved doing the same job overseas if I'd left ten years ago.

Who are all these super-rich you are talking about? I know a lot of people who emigrated, and virtually all of them had literally nothing when they left, and the little bit of "stuff" they had they usually had to leave behind.

In any case, it's THEIR own wealth not the country's, so you and I don't directly lose anything when they take it with them.

Skills, sure.

 

[alloytoo]

200 years!?? I think that's a bit of exaggeration. When I started working I had basically nothing - the sum of my assets were a 20 year old beat-up "student car" (that I anyway earned the money for in the first place doing odd jobs) and a negative bank balance (as I started with credit card debt in the beginning). If I emigrate now I certainly won't be paying a fortune to ship my little bit of crappy hand-me-down furniture (it'll cost more to ship than it's worth) ... the only "accumulated wealth" will be the tiny bit of savings I earned from scratch working over the past ten years - which incidentally is far less than I could've saved doing the same job overseas if I'd left ten years ago.

Who are all these super-rich you are talking about? I know a lot of people who emigrated, and virtually all of them had literally nothing when they left, and the little bit of "stuff" they had they usually had to leave behind.

In any case, it's THEIR own wealth not the country's, so you and I don't directly lose anything when they take it with them.

Skills, sure.

Well, perhaps that 200 years worth isn't vested in you at the moment, but usually the eldest members of any given family hold some inherited wealth. Many young folks are planning the bolt hole for retired, or soon to be be retired parents.

The primary thing is the erosion of the tax base. Why do you think Trevor is resisting any and all attempts to zero rate certain products or lower the fuel taxes.

 

[MacNabs]

But there are many schools (public) in SA with still very good standards and very safe. Take any couple of Model C or D schools in the Western Cape. Tell me, each and every one of them is of insufficient standard, and horribly unsafe? Can you really tell me that?
Same goes for the universities.

Did you know, than in London, the kids will spit on the teacher, swear at her, destroy learning aids in the class, and generally are horrible? And they cannot lift a FINGER to do anything about it. In SA there is at least still detention

Camps bay high school is bad, have friends that send their kids there. Lots of drugs, racism etc etc.. They now pulling their kids out and placing them in a private school at a huge expense. There is simply no comparison, the worst schools in a most civilised countries are still better than the best government schools in SA.

Your example about London schools, may be true for some London schools, but those schools are the bad ones, probably in the bad areas. You need to compare these schools to the very worst schools in SA. You comparison then falls far short.

The same goes for SAfricans that compare “free” public health systems in other countries to private health care in SA, it needs to be compared to the public health system in SA. Again it falls very far short, compare the free public health in AUS/NZ to the kind of treatment you going to get at Joburg Gen for example.

R700 p/m for a hospital plan to a private hospital in SA is not money.
Come on.
And the rest of the examples you give are all mickey mouse money.
By the way, do you want to know what cost car disk licence yearly renewals, TV licences and fuel in most 1st world countries? Make sure you are sitting down before I tell you.

R700pm for a hospital plan? Dream on boet. I was paying R3000pm for our family on discovery health. Now I pay nothing, and the services I get here from the free public health system still betters the private sector in SA.

Yip, car disk licence yearly renewals are expensive here in NZ, about $200 (R1200) per year last time I checked. But then you need to look at the quality of the roads, infrastructure etc etc. And I don’t pay a cent for security, healthcare, excellent schooling for the kids.

There is no denying the fact, we are far better off here in NZ than we were in SA. Both my wife and I were working fulltime in SA, my wife does not work here and we are still surviving fine. We sometimes wonder how we would have managed if we were still in SA, high interest rates, petrol and ever increasing food prices.

 

[werner]

car tax disc: £200 yearly
car insurance: £550 yearly
council tax: £120 monthly
water/lights/electric: £80/month (lotsa computers)
petrol: £1.20/litre
internet/mobile/landline/cable tv: £35 monthly
weekly shopping bill: £50-£80
wife works: yes, 3 days a week.(again, by choice)
husband works: yes, 4 days a week (by choice, flexitime)

alarm in house: none
burglar bars: none
alarm fitted to cars: no, neither immobiliser nor tracker on either one

crime experienced since moving here 11 years ago; zero.
costs of my son's cancer ongoing care: priceless in reality, but zero from my pocket.
public school experience: boy child been accepted to the Young, Gifted and Talented scheme.
what do I do at 1a.m. on a early saturday morning: stumble home the two miles from the pub, making friends along the way with other "stumblers"
where is the sun: dont care anymore, i'm not a fsking reptile, /me warm blooded
where is the boerewors: at the butcher in the high street, next to the polish speciality foods, next aisle from the biltong, droewors and chilli bites
rugby: sky sports shows all the rugby, including LOCAL S.A. matches, stormers etc..
debt: ZERO
savings? :yes, enough to cover us for over a year should we both lose our jobs
what did you arrive in the UK with?: 2 suitcases, about £170 once converted, not a clue about anything else or even a simple gameplan, and lotsa love
parental support: ZERO, did it all ourselves
age at entry: 24


upcoming problems: may need a stab vest, in case i am one in 24 million, according to the news reports. acceptable risk i think.

why am I writing this?: because I dont think I couldve arrived in S.A. if the reverse were true and, been where I am now. Europe, although taxed higher, does have a better environment to just get on with your life instead of worrying.

 

[TooFastTim]

Forget McNabs. SA is perfect, everywhere else is crap and, even though we live there, we're lying. We're also lying about our experiences.

Oh yeah, we can get by on one salary too. it's tight but we can do it.