Who is / was Christ?

nocilah

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If there was one person I could meet it would be J3sus Christ.

Things that still baffle me about him according to history that i think most of us can agree on.

He was born in a village, and traveled in a space smaller then most of us travel in our lives. He lived till about 30 something. He apparently never owned a home and never reached a higher education. He was poor and by the sounds of it never owned a home.

Was never in an election or chose to become a leader of sorts, and popular opinion at the time was against him (much like now). He was crucified like a common thief among thieves by the town dump.

And when he died they had to bury him in a borrowed grave.

Now for 2000 years there have been hundreds of leaders and empires yet this person has somehow existed through history... and yes i am sure the church ruling like an iron fist for a while helped, not to mention the powerful Vatican City.

But how can someone who ultimately seemed no more significant then a town bum still live on today in many peoples lives. Not only that, but if he had only 12 disciples who faced much persecution to spread the word of christ in their life time, some of them imprisoned or killed, how on earth did his message spread like wildfire?

Anyway. Yes another religious thread. Sorry.
 

nocilah

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Well that's the story anyhow...
So how did he become such a figure. Its not like other figures in history who conquered this or did that. If you think of it most characters in history are known for all the bad things they did.
 

arf9999

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Do you want my opinion? A combination of Jewish and pagan mythology and politics.

[edit] i know this going to cause the dodos to crawl out from the woodwork, but you do realise that there is no contemporary evidence that JC ever lived?
 

nocilah

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Do you want my opinion? A combination of Jewish and pagan mythology and politics.
and islamic. apparently j3sus is mentioned as a prophet.

so then you are saying you dont think j3sus lived then?
 

kilo39

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Je sus has to have been a real figure or somebody wrote a 'bestseller.' Doubtful especially the concept and notions expressed (for that time.)
 

nocilah

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Je sus has to have been a real figure or somebody wrote a 'bestseller.' Doubtful especially the concept and notions expressed (for that time.)
well apparently the bible is still a best seller, but more so then that is j3sus then just a typical tragedy story. lets face it - it follows all the rules of a good tragedy.

the hero is always an honourable person. dies unjustly. has a friend who turns against him.

but how many bestsellers have come and gone, some even better then the life of j3sus, and bear in mind the bible did not exist back in the day when the word was being spread.

What made people believe? More so what made people believe that j3sus was the son of god bearing in mind most of this was going on underground due to the fact that you would more then likely be killed or persecuted if you acknowledged you believed that j3sus was the son of god?

Also jews reject j3sus as being the son of god, well i think the fact that they got him crucified is a sign that they disliked him at the time. :p
 

kilo39

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As others have said 'I'm not a theologian' but...

well apparently the bible is still a best seller, but more so then that is j3sus then just a typical tragedy story. lets face it - it follows all the rules of a good tragedy.
It (the new testament) is too sophisticated to have been dreamed up. The conspiracy is too large, ie, many contributed to the NT, what you think they exchanged email? :p

the hero is always an honourable person. dies unjustly. has a friend who turns against him.
If you look into the basis of fables, we humans only tell a few stories. Yes perhaps je sus could fit into one of these but it is still a very sophisticated tale for its time.

but how many bestsellers have come and gone, some even better then the life of j3sus, and bear in mind the bible did not exist back in the day when the word was being spread.
Previous works existed, ie, the old testament, itself a carefully hoarded text worked on by many (also too large to be a conspiracy.) Each is interleaved with the other therefore to hold the whole thing together requires even larger concept over a span of time covering hundreds of years. It is a carefully protected text which grows but at the same time there was no email so it has to be basically true. IOW a multiplicity of authors couldn't all "dream up" the same thing and keep it 'contexually' correct.

What made people believe? More so what made people believe that j3sus was the son of god bearing in mind most of this was going on underground due to the fact that you would more then likely be killed or persecuted if you acknowledged you believed that j3sus was the son of god?
Preaching at the Sea of Galilee wasn't exactly an underground event. Feeding 10 000 wasn't an underground event. These things profoundly affected a 'small' crowd who spread the word. Over time these events were transferred to written text.

Also jews reject j3sus as being the son of god, well i think the fact that they got him crucified is a sign that they disliked him at the time. :p
The fact that Christs coming is foretold in the OT, a text far older than the time of Christ (how long, foretold a 1000 years before?) + the fact he is rejected as foretold. Have to realise this is almost contradictory in the sense why reject someone that is foretold. They do it almost against their better judgement thus 'making the text (contextually) true'.
 

Highflyer_GP

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So how did he become such a figure. Its not like other figures in history who conquered this or did that. If you think of it most characters in history are known for all the bad things they did.
The same way that Santa lives on in the minds of kids. You're merely a kid to the higher powers that be ;)
 

nocilah

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As others have said 'I'm not a theologian' but...

It (the new testament) is too sophisticated to have been dreamed up. The conspiracy is too large, ie, many contributed to the NT, what you think they exchanged email? :p

If you look into the basis of fables, we humans only tell a few stories. Yes perhaps je sus could fit into one of these but it is still a very sophisticated tale for its time.
agreed. I do not deny the existence or the story of Christ.

Previous works existed, ie, the old testament, itself a carefully hoarded text worked on by many (also too large to be a conspiracy.) Each is interleaved with the other therefore to hold the whole thing together requires even larger concept over a span of time covering hundreds of years. It is a carefully protected text which grows but at the same time there was no email so it has to be basically true. IOW a multiplicity of authors couldn't all "dream up" the same thing and keep it 'contexually' correct.
agreed.

Preaching at the Sea of Galilee wasn't exactly an underground event. Feeding 10 000 wasn't an underground event. These things profoundly affected a 'small' crowd who spread the word. Over time these events were transferred to written text.
agreed, but i am talking about the persecution many christians faced after Christ's death. Some of his disciples were imprisoned and some put to death (I may be wrong about the death part)

The fact that Christs coming is foretold in the OT, a text far older than the time of Christ (how long, foretold a 1000 years before?) + the fact he is rejected as foretold. Have to realise this is almost contradictory in the sense why reject someone that is foretold. They do it almost against their better judgement thus 'making the text (contextually) true'.
agreed, hence his famous words: forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

But what made people spread the news of him? So strong and powerful to a point where dates are divided because of his existence and death?
 

Xarog

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Try to bear in mind that there were two groups of Christians before the Council of Nicea - one group regaded him as a divine being, the others merely regarded him as an exceptional (but mortal person). I guess now it's rather obvious which faction won. However, this was not a clean victory, as the divinists (for lack of a better word) threatened many of those who just believed he was a man with death if they attended. The result was that when it came to vote the Divinists outnumbered the Mortalists and the rest is history.
 

kilo39

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:D Why are we having this conversation? :)

But what made people spread the news of him? So strong and powerful to a point where dates are divided because of his existence and death?
The roman empire became converted through a few key figures. This is the equivalent of the fall of the berlin wall. The romans spread the word not christs followers per se.
 

nocilah

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Try to bear in mind that there were two groups of Christians before the Council of Nicea - one group regaded him as a divine being, the others merely regarded him as an exceptional (but mortal person). I guess now it's rather obvious which faction won. However, this was not a clean victory, as the divinists (for lack of a better word) threatened many of those who just believed he was a man with death if they attended. The result was that when it came to vote the Divinists outnumbered the Mortalists and the rest is history.
And those closest to him regarded him as devine, more vehemently after he appeared to them after his death. ie resurrected.

Still wouldn't mind meeting the man and having a conversation with him... albiet my Aramaic suxors.
 

Xarog

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And those closest to him regarded him as devine, more vehemently after he appeared to them after his death. ie resurrected.

Still wouldn't mind meeting the man and having a conversation with him... albiet my Aramaic suxors.
That's what the texts say now - how do you know they weren't edited after the Council of Nicea?
 

Highflyer_GP

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Get with the times dude it is the easter bunny now :p
Haha :D

In all honesty I'm not questioning whether he existed or not (because I really don't know). I'm questioning whether (if he did exist) he really was the son of "God". Regardless, many people have much to learn from the message that he tried to spread (again if he did exist) - not any of the divine messages but indeed our behaviour towards our fellow humans.
 

kilo39

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Try to bear in mind that there were two groups of Christians before the Council of Nicea - one group regaded him as a divine being, the others merely regarded him as an exceptional (but mortal person). I guess now it's rather obvious which faction won. However, this was not a clean victory, as the divinists (for lack of a better word) threatened many of those who just believed he was a man with death if they attended. The result was that when it came to vote the Divinists outnumbered the Mortalists and the rest is history.
Once again I'm not a theologian but...

There were/are more than one church, talking "original" religion, Orthodox for instance. The 'true' divinists were the Gnostics whose work is largely unknown. (Some would say the true teaching of christ.)
 

Neo

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halicon, there are many good books on the subject and you should read up a bit. Or else start on Wikipedia. It's an interesting topic but be warned, some of the pre-conceived ideas you have might be shaken up a bit. :)

As already pointed out there is no evidence that the historical J esus even lived. The Gospels (the only documents naming J esus) were written well after he would have died and were obviously not written by anyone contemporary with J esus. Some of the gospels even state this. Do yourself a favour and read the Gospel according to Thomas. Depicts quite an playful J esus as a child.

The history of the early church is a lesson in how a religion can get constructed. After 2000 years, one can hardly believe it started so easily but that's how these things happen.

My personal feel is that he did actually live and probably did cause enough havoc to be remembered by some people. Kinda like Nelson did before he was locked up, i.e. a freedom fighter, freedom from oppression and the religion of the day.

You should watch 'Life of Brian'. It's actually quite insightful (and historically correct, at least about the times and the Romans) apart from being very funny.
 

kilo39

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Haha :D

In all honesty I'm not questioning whether he existed or not (because I really don't know). I'm questioning whether (if he did exist) he really was the son of "God". Regardless, many people have much to learn from the message that he tried to spread (again if he did exist) - not any of the divine messages but indeed our behaviour towards our fellow humans.
This is non-logical. The concepts came from somewhere, supposedly from christ. The concepts are too large for the time. Therefore they were originated, more than likely by one person (they are consistent.) Therefore he must have existed. As to "Son of God" this is also illogical: the teachings of christ whom you've just agreed by the above logic definitely existed taught he was the son of god (all embodied in one) therefore if the man and his teachings/concepts existed how can you doubt the story: it is his story.
 
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