Who is / was Christ?

Aqua_lung

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You should watch "The Secret Bible" on National Geographic or rent the DVD it answers your questions pretty well, in short the Romans are responsible
 

nocilah

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To the teeming millions who have died or suffered in the name of ignorance and religion
Read the following article, and decide for yourselves the validity of much of what we think we know:
http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/sok/sok-04.html
great read with alot of scriptures taken out of context which was the first mistake.

But the more the article went on the more i realised it had that familiar 'conspiracy theory' feel behind it. As usual a small minority who know the real truth and a powerful ruling being suppressing the real truth.

Anyway i would like to point out a mistake in the article:

from your article:
JOSEPHUS (A.D. 37-105) the historian does not mention *****.
about the historian who did not mention j3sus.
Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93. In it, ***** is mentioned twice.
and same dude: Joesephus writes:

About this time came *****, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.[32]
anyway when an article smells like a conspiracy theory and then make up stuff on the spot i usually ignore it. so sorry, nice read but i think it holds less substance then the bible they are trying to say has been rewritten to suit the powers that be. what were you saying about ignorance again?
 
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kilo39

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As already pointed out there is no evidence that the historical J esus even lived. The Gospels (the only documents naming J esus) were written well after he would have died and were obviously not written by anyone contemporary with J esus. Some of the gospels even state this. Do yourself a favour and read the Gospel according to Thomas. Depicts quite an playful J esus as a child.
But here I've just posted a link to the Orthodox church... and if you read the text it says:

It is headed by the Ecumenical Patriarch, who has the status of "first among equals" among the world's Orthodox bishops. According to tradition, it has its roots in the preaching of the Apostle Andrew in Constantinople (then Byzantium) in AD 38

Point: these are concurrent times. Yes 'they' were contemporary with je sus.
 

Neo

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But here I've just posted a link to the Orthodox church... and if you read the text it says:

It is headed by the Ecumenical Patriarch, who has the status of "first among equals" among the world's Orthodox bishops. According to tradition, it has its roots in the preaching of the Apostle Andrew in Constantinople (then Byzantium) in AD 38

Point: these are concurrent times. Yes 'they' were contemporary with je sus.
According to tradition, Noah built a ship that could house all the species on the planet.....
According to tradition, the world is 6000 years old.....
According to tradition, Santa will bring you a nice present if you were good....

etc.
 

kilo39

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According to tradition, Noah built a ship that could house all the species on the planet.....
According to tradition, the world is 6000 years old.....
According to tradition, Santa will bring you a nice present if you were good....

etc.
I don't understand your argument. Are you saying the apostle andrew didn't exist? Illogical captain.

That would have to be a very big conspiracy, an impossible conspiracy especially considering the times.
 

nocilah

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According to tradition, Noah built a ship that could house all the species on the planet.....
According to tradition, the world is 6000 years old.....
According to tradition, Santa will bring you a nice present if you were good....

etc.
according to tradition man went to the moon. ;)
 

Highflyer_GP

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This is non-logical. The concepts came from somewhere, supposedly from christ. The concepts are too large for the time. Therefore they were originated, more than likely by one person (they are consistent.) Therefore he must have existed. As to "Son of God" this is also illogical: the teachings of christ whom you've just agreed by the above logic definitely existed taught he was the son of god (all embodied in one) therefore if the man and his teachings/concepts existed how can you doubt the story: it is his story.
Believe it or not there are many Christ-like figures in various cultures and religions with similar teachings and messages. My point wasn't the existence or non-existence of this figure, but rather humans learning from the message itself - wherever it originated from.
 

Neo

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I don't understand your argument. Are you saying the apostle andrew didn't exist? Illogical captain.

That would have to be a very big conspiracy, an impossible conspiracy especially considering the times.
I was wondering why the quote you provided did not state it as a fact, but as "according to tradition"? Sounds like there is cause for doubt.

@ halicon, point taken, but of course it's much easier to prove / disprove events that happened in your own time period (the 60's / 70's) than events that happened 2000 years ago.
 

kilo39

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I was wondering why the quote you provided did not state it as a fact, but as "according to tradition"? Sounds like there is cause for doubt.

@ halicon, point taken, but of course it's much easier to prove / disprove events that happened in your own time period (the 60's / 70's) than events that happened 2000 years ago.
Sorry I misquoted. According to tradition in this context is not questioning his existence: 'according to tradition,' ie, the tradition of the church at that time, or the law. Nothing to do with whether the man existed.

If you read a bit further (before jumping to conclusions) it says "Christianity in Byzantium existed from the time of the Twelve Apostles"

It was contemporary. He was contemporary. He was an apostle.
 

Neo

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Sorry I misquoted. According to tradition in this context is not questioning his existence: 'according to tradition,' ie, the tradition of the church at that time, or the law. Nothing to do with whether the man existed.

If you read a bit further (before jumping to conclusions) it says "Christianity in Byzantium existed from the time of the Twelve Apostles"

It was contemporary. He was contemporary. He was an apostle.
Will read. Your quote just kinda jumped at me with the 'tradition' bit.

Not quite convinced yet, but will first read and then comment.
 

kilo39

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The bits highlighted about Josephus on J sus, are well stated , but this is still disputed, and has been for almost 300 years,
See link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_*****#Testimonium_Flavianum
Then again can we trust that the documents we have today are real or forgeries made out to say what would be convenient?
http://www.new-tradition.org/classical.htm
Nanfeishen without reading your link (I will.) There is no doubt "the documents" have been 'sanitised' and made to present a certain point of view/version of reality. (But the core is stll there.) This goes to my earlier link of the Gnostics (the true teachings, unadulterated.)

Similar to the book of judas [-]just found[/-] or rather "just translated."
 
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Nanfeishen

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@ Kilo, the original topic was about J sus, the one most people refer to as Christ, 3 links i provided, (See both posts), question the historical figure of J sus the man, and whether or not he existed as is claimed by the bibliophiles and the religious, plus they put forward some very good points on the idea of misrepresentation of the "goodness" of the church and its teachings, as well as suggesting that historically the church has interfered in the advancement of new ideas, suppressed scientific knowledge, hidden and destroyed many books manuscripts, teachings and practices it considered in opposition to its ideas of the society it was trying to "guide" to suit its own purpose.
Your link to the Gnostics, was interesting reading, but and i must say but, it is directed more towards the idea of religious variation, than whether or not J sus or the Christ, existed as claimed.
Gnostisism, is another monotheistic belief, with an unseen all powerful deity, a saviour, good guys bad guys, and the usual party line and arrows all pointing in the same direction saying "this is the way"
 

simple_simon

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But what made people spread the news of him? So strong and powerful to a point where dates are divided because of his existence and death?
the romans needed only one religion in the empire, its easier to control the masses if they all have the same beliefs. so they voted on *****'s divinity and 4 of the 26 or so gospel to be canonised. began the editing process of the 4 gospels "accepted" and then proceeded to eradicate anyone who did not agree with their religion.
 

Nick333

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If there was one person I could meet it would be J3sus Christ.

Things that still baffle me about him according to history that i think most of us can agree on.

He was born in a village, and traveled in a space smaller then most of us travel in our lives. He lived till about 30 something. He apparently never owned a home and never reached a higher education. He was poor and by the sounds of it never owned a home.

Was never in an election or chose to become a leader of sorts, and popular opinion at the time was against him (much like now). He was crucified like a common thief among thieves by the town dump.

And when he died they had to bury him in a borrowed grave.

Now for 2000 years there have been hundreds of leaders and empires yet this person has somehow existed through history... and yes i am sure the church ruling like an iron fist for a while helped, not to mention the powerful Vatican City.

But how can someone who ultimately seemed no more significant then a town bum still live on today in many peoples lives. Not only that, but if he had only 12 disciples who faced much persecution to spread the word of christ in their life time, some of them imprisoned or killed, how on earth did his message spread like wildfire?

Anyway. Yes another religious thread. Sorry.
I haven't read past the first post yet, but I would just like to say that most of what you have just said could be said about the Buddha.

Secondly claiming that popular opinion is against JC at the present is a ridiculous statement. The majority of people in this country are Christian.
 

nocilah

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Secondly claiming that popular opinion is against JC at the present is a ridiculous statement. The majority of people in this country are Christian.
I am talking about this forum... not the country.

also i am NOT talking about Buddha, I am talking about J3sus.

So thanks but what is your point. Doesnt change what i have said?
 

nocilah

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The bits highlighted about Josephus on J sus, are well stated , but this is still disputed, and has been for almost 300 years,
See link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_*****#Testimonium_Flavianum
Then again can we trust that the documents we have today are real or forgeries made out to say what would be convenient?
http://www.new-tradition.org/classical.htm
We can debate any person in history and the reality of their existence or actions. Did the Egyptians build the pyramids? Because they are in Egypt we assume they did.

I don't believe for a second that J3sus did not live or walk the earth. As Kilo suggested earlier, it is too big of a conspiracy theory.

And why all of a sudden after J3sus' death would people scheme that this might be a religion to 'rule' the world with.

Something after J3sus' death must have been so strong to cause the chain reaction that happened. Something of his miracles must hold some value that his messages (altered or not) spread from a small land across the globe.

And don't get me wrong. This is not about the church, because the church, vatican, ect ect ect have done plenty bad things.

I am simply talking about the man.

I can not deny he existed because before his words and actions became religion he must have said and done some pretty powerful things for people to start spreading his word for it to become what it is today.

Whether it has been altered or not is irrelevant. That is even more reason to wonder why particularly that man. A nobody turned into a somebody.

Anyway I am interested in the decade after his death, not after that.

But i think most of can agree. He must have lived at one stage.
 

Nick333

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I am talking about this forum... not the country.

also i am NOT talking about Buddha, I am talking about J3sus.

So thanks but what is your point. Doesnt change what i have said?
Well I think you'd be wrong on that account as well, perhaps a quick survey would clear it up.

What I mean is that the fact that a myth built around an actual person has survived and thrived doesn't necessarily say anything about the actual person. All it tells us is that the myth is appealing.

Also, while I'm here: persecution and martyrdom generally helps a cause grow, especially amongst a disgruntled populace. Its a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Just look at the growing support for Palestine. Is it because people really give a **** or because people who are growing less and less fond of the US see it as another thing to hate the US for?
 

nocilah

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the romans needed only one religion in the empire, its easier to control the masses if they all have the same beliefs. so they voted on *****'s divinity and 4 of the 26 or so gospel to be canonised. began the editing process of the 4 gospels "accepted" and then proceeded to eradicate anyone who did not agree with their religion.
are these the same romans who named the days of the week after Roman and Norse Gods?

The same Roman's whose empire lasted a thousand years, with 753 of those years being prior to J3sus' birth?

thats 75% of their empire from birth to expansion before J3sus was born. According to sources on this forum, Christianty only became mainstream 200 years after his death which means it played a part in the Roman Empire for maybe 100-150 years? 10% of their empire time?

Your argument holds little substance if it was used to control the countries they ruled, because they seemed to be doing pretty well for 700 years without using this unified religion.

Are you maybe thinking of Roman Cathlics :p
 
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