Who is / was Christ?

simple_simon

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I haven't read past the first post yet, but I would just like to say that most of what you have just said could be said about the Buddha.

Secondly claiming that popular opinion is against JC at the present is a ridiculous statement. The majority of people in this country are Christian.
what is a christian?
 

nthdimension

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You are implying that Jesus was somehow special. Unique in the history of the world. Neither the mythology nor his ideas were unique.

He may have existed or the ideas of many people may have been combined and attributed to a single source that never existed. There is no conspiracy theory in the notion that this individual may not have actually existed. People find it easier to follow a figurehead than ideas alone.

This religion has always targeted and appealed to the downtrodden. It's initial appeal would have been obvious. Once it became the state religion it was guaranteed growth.

Using the religion to rule the world would have come later.

We can't know whether this religion would have died out if it had not ultimately been imposed on people.
 

simple_simon

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You are implying that Jesus was somehow special. Unique in the history of the world. Neither the mythology nor his ideas were unique.

He may have existed or the ideas of many people may have been combined and attributed to a single source that never existed. There is no conspiracy theory in the notion that this individual may not have actually existed. People find it easier to follow a figurehead than ideas alone.

This religion has always targeted and appealed to the downtrodden. It's initial appeal would have been obvious. Once it became the state religion it was guaranteed growth.

Using the religion to rule the world would have come later.

We can't know whether this religion would have died out if it had not ultimately been imposed on people.
this is exactly my point........this is what the christ energy is,the christ energy encarnated many times on the planet....buddah, mohamed, krishna....they were all encarnations of the christ energy just had different names.
 

simple_simon

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are these the same romans who named the days of the week after Roman and Norse Gods?

The same Roman's whose empire lasted a thousand years, with 753 of those years being prior to J3sus' birth?

thats 75% of their empire from birth to expansion before J3sus was born. According to sources on this forum, Christianty only became mainstream 200 years after his death which means it played a part in the Roman Empire for maybe 100-150 years? 10% of their empire time?

Your argument holds little substance if it was used to control the countries they ruled, because they seemed to be doing pretty well for 700 years without using this unified religion.

Are you maybe thinking of Roman Cathlics :p
i don't think we can really even concieve of a 100 - 150 years as we have not lived this long to gage the experience, but me thinks 100 - 150 years is more than enough time to instill control through religion. considering the average lifespan of the population wasn't more than 40 yrs if that.....thats three complete generations atleast to endoctronate the populations completely
 

GamerGirl

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I don't think the existence/non-existence of Christ should be the question.
But more why the deeds of 1 man and his cronies, essentially managed to change the face of religion/religious-politics across the globe. By this I don't mean Christ but Constantine. http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm

'Constantine began what was to become a centuries long effort to eliminate any book in the original Bible that was considered unacceptable to the new doctrine of the church. At that time, it is believed there were up to 600 books, which comprised the work we now know as the Bible. Through a series of decisions made by the early church leadership, all but 80 of those books, known as the King James Translation of 1611, were purged from the work, with a further reduction by the Protestant Reformation bringing the number to 66 in the "Authorized" King James Bible.'

The whole book known as the bible was selectively chosen by him, and yet wars and human atrocities across the globe for centuries occur in the so-called words of God.
 

Mr TB

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the romans needed only one religion in the empire, its easier to control the masses if they all have the same beliefs. so they voted on *****'s divinity and 4 of the 26 or so gospel to be canonised. began the editing process of the 4 gospels "accepted" and then proceeded to eradicate anyone who did not agree with their religion.
If i may comment on this idea, the early christians were indeed persecuted by the Romans because they did not acknowledge ceasar as "LORD", for the king of the empire to stand to control the masses? Does not make sense...
 

Highflyer_GP

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*sigh* The dodo found this thread too. Guess I'm also out of this one now. No time to read bullshit.

One thing before I leave - GamerGirl that's spot on, but somehow isn't acknowledged by most Christians I know. The scripture they follow so closely was put together by a man who randomly chose which books should form a part of it.
 
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Mr TB

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I don't think the existence/non-existence of Christ should be the question.
But more why the deeds of 1 man and his cronies, essentially managed to change the face of religion/religious-politics across the globe. By this I don't mean Christ but Constantine. http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm

'Constantine began what was to become a centuries long effort to eliminate any book in the original Bible that was considered unacceptable to the new doctrine of the church. At that time, it is believed there were up to 600 books, which comprised the work we now know as the Bible. Through a series of decisions made by the early church leadership, all but 80 of those books, known as the King James Translation of 1611, were purged from the work, with a further reduction by the Protestant Reformation bringing the number to 66 in the "Authorized" King James Bible.'

The whole book known as the bible was selectively chosen by him, and yet wars and human atrocities across the globe for centuries occur in the so-called words of God.
GAMEGIRL i believe the very first fact you state is wrong... Constantine was at war, with the heretic Aranius. At the Council of Nice 325AD Aranius with a vote 318/2 was declared a heretic and destroyed, no decision made concerning the content of the bible... In 381AD there was a Council again but i think Constantine was then dead and buried.. not even a converted christian i think...
 

Mr TB

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Constantine did not try to eliminate scripture as indicated in the passage...
 

simple_simon

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what i find that is interesting and probably the most important aspect that came out of the whole da vinci code craze.....was that the general public were made aware of the council of nice.

i just love the way the church and their zombies are scrambling to explain this and that about it.

i think this is dan browns greatest achievement.

carry on dodo, for your thinking is also heading towards extinction just as your namesake did
 

simple_simon

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GAMEGIRL i believe the very first fact you state is wrong... Constantine was at war, with the heretic Aranius. At the Council of Nice 325AD Aranius with a vote 318/2 was declared a heretic and destroyed, no decision made concerning the content of the bible... In 381AD there was a Council again but i think Constantine was then dead and buried.. not even a converted christian i think...
its not about belief, its about fact....and the wonderfull world of beauracracy that started so many thousands of years ago. the original works by early christians were systematically "edited" or destroyed until we have today...the virtual complete loss of the orignal teaching of christ.
 

simple_simon

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Constantine did not try to eliminate scripture as indicated in the passage...
really....come one, fess up. you're secretly ray mackauly aren't you. don't want to lose the millions you make every year from zombies
 

GamerGirl

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try Googling .... anything like 'the making of the bible and constantine' or 'constantine and the bible'

... there is alot of debate on it yes... so perhaps it is opinion again... but nevertheless... there is nothing pointing to the book being the actual 'words of God' and yet we manage to create such chaos out of something that supposedly comes out of love??

so whether Christ existed or not, to me isn't the issue... all the religious texts get manipulated by man in order to maintain power or 'rightness'
 

Ekhaatvensters

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btw.. How come nobody was Christian if the Christian God (assuming you believe the Bible and are Christian) created the first two people on the earth?

You would think that they would be Christian is they spoke with God when he said bla bla dont eat from that tree bla bla... Yet a few thousand years later, nobody is Christian anymore, just Pagan or Jewish or Muslim.

(Okay well that comes from the OT, so it was written by Jews I guess, but its weird how Christians just adopt that and it doesn't even make sense to have the original people on Earth as Christians.)

So now God has to send his Son to Earth and tries to convert people (He had the power to create the universe right?) by splitting up bread and fish... probably the lamest story ever, ever.

EDIT: Sorry I'm very uneducated on these Bible facts and what who believes :/
 

Mr TB

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try Googling .... anything like 'the making of the bible and constantine' or 'constantine and the bible'

... there is alot of debate on it yes... so perhaps it is opinion again... but nevertheless... there is nothing pointing to the book being the actual 'words of God' and yet we manage to create such chaos out of something that supposedly comes out of love??

so whether Christ existed or not, to me isn't the issue... all the religious texts get manipulated by man in order to maintain power or 'rightness'
It is important, it is one of the first lies that come squirming out of the writer DAN BROWN's pen in order to give credit to his novel "THE DA VINCI CODE!"

The emperor began by making the bishops understand that they had a greater and better business in hand than personal quarrels and interminable recriminations. Nevertheless, he had to submit to the infliction of hearing the last words of debates which had been going on previous to his arrival. Eusebius of Caesarea and his two abbreviators, Socrates and Sozomen, as well as Rufinus and Gelasius of Cyzicus, report no details of the theological discussions. Rufinus tells us only that daily sessions were held and that Arius was often summoned before the assembly; his opinions were seriously discussed and the opposing arguments attentively considered. The majority, especially those who were confessors of the Faith, energetically declared themselves against the impious doctrines of Arius. (For the part played by the Eusebian third party, see EUSEBIUS OF NICOMEDIA. For the Creed of Eusebius, see EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA.) St. Athanasius assures us that the activities of the Council were nowise hampered by Constantine's presence. The emperor had by this time escaped from the influence of Eusebius of Nicomedia, and was under that of Hosius, to whom, as well as to St. Athanasius, may be attributed a preponderant influence in the formulation of the symbol of the First Ecumenical Council, of which the following is a literal translation:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord ***** Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made our of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes.
The adhesion was general and enthusiastic. All the bishops save five declared themselves ready to subscribe to this formula, convince that it contained the ancient faith of the Apostolic Church. The opponents were soon reduced to two, Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais, who were exiled and anathematized. Arius and his writings were also branded with anathema, his books were cast into the fire, and he was exiled to Illyria. The lists of the signers have reached us in a mutilated condition, disfigured by faults of the copyists. Nevertheless, these lists may be regarded as authentic. Their study is a problem which has been repeatedly dealt with in modern times, in Germany and England, in the critical editions of H. Gelzer, H. Hilgenfeld, and O. Contz on the one hand, and C. H. Turner on the other. The lists thus constructed give respectively 220 and 218 names. With information derived from one source or another, a list of 232 or 237 fathers known to have been present may be constructed.
Other matters dealt with by this council were the controversy as to the time of celebrating Easter and the Meletian schism. The former of these two will be found treated under EASTER CONTROVERSY; the latter under MELETIUS OF LYCOPOLIS.
 

jarr

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...One thing before I leave - GamerGirl that's spot on, but somehow isn't acknowledged by most Christians I know. The scripture they follow so closely was put together by a man who randomly chose which books should form a part of it.
good point, but remember that christians see the bible as divinely inspired, ie god didn't physically write the different books, people did, but as they were 'moved' by god. also, all through the old testament there are examples of people being used as the 'agents' of god to accomplish his will, even though they were completely unaware of it.

so by the same token (and of course all the above reasoning is done from a christian point of view), would it really be all that strange if god used one person to assemble the bible the way he wanted it done, even if that was not his (constantine's) intention? just a thought... ;)
 

GamerGirl

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douwdouw these 'facts' have been around alot longer than Dan Brown. He just re-highlighted them... so climb off the soap-box pls.... clearly your opinions are just different to others.
none of us have ABSOLUTE proof, because strangely enough all the PROOF disappeared at the same time as the missing scrolls.

and jarr, i completely agree... these words could be 'inspired' into one man, at the hands of god himself. we are all free to choose which side of the coin we wish to look at. but do we have to murder and condemn and war over all these opinions???
 

simple_simon

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so by the same token (and of course all the above reasoning is done from a christian point of view), would it really be all that strange if god used one person to assemble the bible the way he wanted it done, even if that was not his (constantine's) intention? just a thought... ;)
oh deary. one can justify anything regardless of contradicting evidence.

these religious debates are so pointless.

even when you point out that the bible is severly edited to serve the people of power. to keep them there, you still get those that even when presented with this evidence continue in denial........it must be to much effort to think for one self apparently
 

LoneGunman

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so if I've been inspired and moved by what feels very much like God, to hunt down douwdouws with a 10 ton truck of donkey sewerage, I should do it?
:p
 
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