Who is / was Christ?

Debbie

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A book that just happened to come my way this morning-

Herrin, Judith, The Formation of Christendom (1987) [paperback from Phoenix Press, 2001]

The formation of Christendom addresses both the Christian and the Muslim inheritors of the Roman Empire and asks how it was that they came to define their world solely in religious terms.
Author is a former Princeton professor of Byzantine history.

I have not read it, but I have flipped through it and it looks packed with infomation.
 

LoneGunman

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for what its worth, karen armstrong's 'History of God' is a good read, for a fairly authoritative academic look at the underlying history..
 

Neo

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for what its worth, karen armstrong's 'History of God' is a good read, for a fairly authoritative academic look at the underlying history..
Yes, a good read, especially on the OT god. But it goes much further than the topic of this thread. For a book directly related to the question posed in this topic read Ian Wilson's 'J esus: The Evidence'.

The evidence is well presented, in a logical way and allows you to form your own deductions and conclusions. Mine differ from the author.
 
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ghoti

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The stories told about Osiris-Dionysus will no doubt sound familiar. He is the Son of God who is born to a virgin on the 25th of December before three shepherds. He is a prophet who offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism. He is a wonderworker who raises the dead and miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony. He is God incarnate who dies at Easter, sometimes through crucifixion, but who resurrects on the third day. He is a savior who offers his followers redemption through partaking in a meal of bread and wine, symbolic of his body and blood. The ***** story is a synthesis of the Jewish myth of the Messiah Joshua (in Greek *****) with these Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting Godman.
Some interesting reading : http://www.vexen.co.uk/books/*****mysteries.html
 

kilps

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Firstly to try and answer halicon's original question ... the way I look at it is that if you can accept that ***** existed then you must assume that his legacy somehow made it to those who put together the Bible. So disregarding any debate as to the accuracy of the Bible he must have at least been a person who made a big enough difference in people's lives that we still know about him today.

Of course this could not be the sole reason why he 'still live on today in many peoples lives' as people today have learned of him through the means which this thread is now debating.

I think that how he became so well known is simple (he made some sort of a difference) - which is why we are in a way debating what that difference was.

Also jews reject j3sus as being the son of god, well i think the fact that they got him crucified is a sign that they disliked him at the time. :p
I think that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****#Judaism.27s_view in a way answers why the Jews reject him, simply because they do not think his actions and their results fulfill the prophesies.

btw.. How come nobody was Christian if the Christian God (assuming you believe the Bible and are Christian) created the first two people on the earth?

You would think that they would be Christian is they spoke with God when he said bla bla dont eat from that tree bla bla... Yet a few thousand years later, nobody is Christian anymore, just Pagan or Jewish or Muslim.

(Okay well that comes from the OT, so it was written by Jews I guess, but its weird how Christians just adopt that and it doesn't even make sense to have the original people on Earth as Christians.)

So now God has to send his Son to Earth and tries to convert people (He had the power to create the universe right?) by splitting up bread and fish... probably the lamest story ever, ever.

EDIT: Sorry I'm very uneducated on these Bible facts and what who believes :/
Christianity is supposed to be an extension of the Jewish faith - ie Christians and Jews are the same up to the point of Christ were they differentiate on if he is the true Son of God. So it is not a matter of how God made people but what they believed later on
You can basically justify anything this way. It is the god moves in mysterious ways cop-out.

The Bible being inspired and not actually written by god is given as an excuse for why it contains problems. You'd think a perfect god could manage some perfect inspiration.

On the other hand if we take it as given that this god did manipulate Constantine we could use the results to investigate this god's true intentions.

Perhaps the Vatican's evil deeds throughout history are also all god at work.
Ok - firstly God managing 'perfect inspiration' implies complete control - which goes against [at least my] the idea of consciouses choice ... Secondly why do people keep bringing up the actions of the Church in the past? Perhaps these actions were the accepted norms of the time (war on terrorism? - just a thought)
- but these were the actions of humans who believed they were doing God's will, so it says nothing about the religion but of those people ... besides - I think most modern day Church's are reasonably tolerant

It's still an interesting idea - are we practicing the 'correct' form of Christianity? It's one of the reasons I don't like the idea of taking the Bible completely literally (ie how do we know the Bible allowing for the death penalty was not simply because of the norms of the time?) - if you don't take things too literally I think it boils down to are the so called values the true ones of Christ

I still want to do more reading on this ...
 

noxibox

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firstly God managing 'perfect inspiration' implies complete control
So the entire book could be totally faulty bearing little or no resemblance to what was really said.

Perfect inspiration has nothing to do with control. It is merely a reflection of this god's skill at communicating with these things it supposedly created, or in this case it's lack thereof.

why do people keep bringing up the actions of the Church in the past
These were god's agents acting as a force for evil, but where is this benevolent god? Taking a lunch break? Having another day off?
 
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kilps

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So the entire book could be totally faulty bearing little or no resemblance to what was really said.

Perfect inspiration has nothing to do with control. It is merely a reflection of this god's skill at communicating with these things it supposedly created, or in this case it's lack thereof.
No - what I am saying is that because of human faults we should not take everything exactly as it is presented but rather look at the underlying meanings as such. Control does have everything to do with it - if there was a perfect Bible then we probably would be 'inspired' to live exactly by it which goes against choosing God etc. Basically I look at the Bible as a way of getting out ideas and not as a perfect little instruction booklet - of course that in itself is debatable
This god's agents acting as a force for evil, but where is this benevolent god? Taking a lunch break? Having another day off?
Well how do we know that was God's wish? If he was to simply prevent it from happening then he would be controlling these people ...
 

noxibox

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If the Bible is faulty we cannot know how faulty it is. To what degree has the message been garbled?

If the message had been sent properly it would have no bearing on the effort necessary to adhere to the requirements. Except we would not have to waste time and energy on recovery of data that has been corrupted to an unknown extent. Given God's inability to transmit information accurately the information we have may bare no resemblance to the original message.

If God can never act to prevent evil, then God is effectively impotent. Free will is an extremely weak excuse for a failure to act.
 

nocilah

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If the Bible is faulty we cannot know how faulty it is. To what degree has the message been garbled?
it is faulty to some flawless for others

If the message had been sent properly it would have no bearing on the effort necessary to adhere to the requirements. Except we would not have to waste time and energy on recovery of data that has been corrupted to an unknown extent. Given God's inability to transmit information accurately the information we have may bare no resemblance to the original message.
if you are assuming the bible is faulty then why are you bringing God into the equation? perhaps a fault with your logic?

If God can never act to prevent evil, then God is effectively impotent. Free will is an extremely weak excuse for a failure to act.
but God has been purported to have acted against evil many times in the bible.

Off the top of my head the exile of adam and eve from the garden of eden was his first act against evil.
 

Mr TB

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GAMEGIRL in reply to your remark...

I don't blatantly believe just anything, I have a stronger mind than that, so I like to make up my own mind and not follow like a 'lamb'...

YES, that is why I know on the thrown sits the LION OF JUDA..., following like a "lamb" means just I trust His voice..., not be strongminded follow my way just to be devoured by the one that roars like a lion...
 

Mr TB

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God is no longer believed to be the author/to have inspired the Bible?


Purported.
The Bible is the inspired word of god, no doubt. Nothing is said about the translators of such word being inspired causing the obvious problems in the bible today...

Threadmembers arguing this point are just to obtuse accepting reality...
 

Neo

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The Bible is the inspired word of god, no doubt...
Proof?

I'd strongly suggest you actually read up on the history of how the bible got put together. Nothing divine in that, just humans trying to construct a scripture to back up their views.

Large parts of the OT was blatantly copied from other religions. Fact. Been debated / discussed / proven on this forum often enough.

The NT was a construct by Paul and the early church in Rome, (with a little help from the Roman Emperors). Fact. Been debated / discussed / proven on this forum often enough.

But you must have strong proof with a statement like "no doubt".

Quite keen to hear it.
 

Mr TB

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Proof?

I'd strongly suggest you actually read up on the history of how the bible got put together. Nothing divine in that, just humans trying to construct a scripture to back up their views.

Large parts of the OT was blatantly copied from other religions. Fact. Been debated / discussed / proven on this forum often enough.

The NT was a construct by Paul and the early church in Rome, (with a little help from the Roman Emperors). Fact. Been debated / discussed / proven on this forum often enough.

But you must have strong proof with a statement like "no doubt".

Quite keen to hear it.
You are also one of those who keep on about discrepancies and contradictions, read this verse:

2 Peter 3:15 (New International Version)
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

2 Peter 3:16 (New International Version)
16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

If I look at this i am sure there were already people in the first century trying to distort the teachings in Paul's letters,... like you maybe?
 

Neo

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You are also one of those who keep on about discrepancies and contradictions, read this verse:

2 Peter 3:15 (New International Version)
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

2 Peter 3:16 (New International Version)
16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

If I look at this i am sure there were already people in the first century trying to distort the teachings in Paul's letters,... like you maybe?
Do you actually know who Paul was and his differences with Peter and James (who was the true leader of the early church after his boet disappeared)?

Why do you think Paul acted so paranoid? He had no clue who or what J esus was and ended up arguing with everyone on this, including James but especially Peter.
 

Mr TB

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Strong words?... check the words used denying the bible without proof in other threads, so please...

And then judging, how many times have you non-believers judged god?
Then if you are apparently judged you ran of crying...
You judged without having the real facts at hand...mmmm....

Like the one guy said the 10 commands was in any case put in place for men by god as a standard god will use to judge men and for men to know that standard..., not for men to judge god...
 

Mr TB

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Do you actually know who Paul was and his differences with Peter and James (who was the true leader of the early church after his boet disappeared)?

Why do you think Paul acted so paranoid? He had no clue who or what J esus was and ended up arguing with everyone on this, including James but especially Peter.
I tried to explain grace to you which you are to hard-headed to understand...
If you can tell me why Paul took TITUS a greek with him when he went to jerusalem and you are correct...

Then i will tell you what Paul's mission was and what the mission of Peter was.
Untill such time you do not unferstand anything... you only think you do...
 

ID10T

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OK I read up to page 2 in the half. Then everything got very confusing.

I am not learned in religion, so I will not argue or anything.

I just know that I will be a Christian and not question what I Believe.
 
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