Who lives in an estate where random searches / biometrics / license scans happen?

[MagicDude4Eva]

I have heard that some estates are now introducing random searches and have introduced business-park-like security measures such biometrics and scanning of license disc, ID book etc.

I was not able to get my questions answered by any of the estates, so I hope that someone can either publicly or via PM share some insight:
- What do your security guards do when a visitor leaving your estate refuses a search?
- If you make searches mandatory, how have you covered this legally? Security guards are not law enforcement (and even with SAPS/JMPD I can refuse a search)
- How do you avoid your searches being made out to be "profiled" (i.e. the estates only target visitors)
- Do you have additional liability insurance in case the PII information you capture leaks (read POPI)
- Do you have access control and auditing in place to control access to the PII information

I need to spend some time tonight on the legality, but I don't think a "Right of admission reserved" can apply in a residential estate - i.e. MagicDude's visitor refuses the scan of the license disc/ID book, surely estate security can not turn away my visitor?

 

[Pitbull]

I have heard that some estates are now introducing random searches and have introduced business-park-like security measures such biometrics and scanning of license disc, ID book etc.

I was not able to get my questions answered by any of the estates, so I hope that someone can either publicly or via PM share some insight:
- What do your security guards do when a visitor leaving your estate refuses a search?
- If you make searches mandatory, how have you covered this legally? Security guards are not law enforcement (and even with SAPS/JMPD I can refuse a search)
- How do you avoid your searches being made out to be "profiled" (i.e. the estates only target visitors)
- Do you have additional liability insurance in case the PII information you capture leaks (read POPI)
- Do you have access control and auditing in place to control access to the PII information

I need to spend some time tonight on the legality, but I don't think a "Right of admission reserved" can apply in a residential estate - i.e. MagicDude's visitor refuses the scan of the license disc/ID book, surely estate security can not turn away my visitor?

I think all of this would be covered when you sign to be given entry to the premises by authorising them to search your vehicle on your exit. Refusing that I don't know the consequences but I'm sure it can be enforced and police called to the scene and you be stopped from leaving till they arrive.

How to avoid profiling is easy. When I used to work on a mine they had a bag with a couple of balls in it. A certain percentage of the balls are a different colour, you pull that one you get searched. Percentage depends on the time of day and the amount of traffic at certain times. maybe 1/5 balls or 2/5 balls 3/5. you get the idea.

 

[Lord Farquart]

MagicDude's visitor refuses the scan of the license disc/ID book, surely estate security can not turn away my visitor?

If you live in the same estate as I, I would hope they throw your visitor out/refuse entry. What does that person have to hide by not wanting his details to be recorded?

 

[MagicDude4Eva]

If you live in the same estate as I, I would hope they throw your visitor out/refuse entry. What does that person have to hide by not wanting his details to be recorded?

I think it is a principle question: Why should visitors not be trusted and searched and residents not? In our estate of a good 230 houses for example I barely know my adjacent neighbors and even there I wouldn't know if that person is a criminal. So in that line of thought it should then be reasonable to expect that every person leaving a residential estate could be exposed to a random search?

I find this idea generally stupid for any residential area - it will not prevent crime. Random visitors with criminal intent would find other ways to lift stuff. Eventually visitors will become regulars and then those aspects of control are meaningless.

I am surprised by one estate that they were perfectly fine accepting the vetting of estate agents for potential house buyers (i.e. estate agents gave random people access codes which implied that those randoms were "trusted").

 

[supersunbird]

I would love to live in such an estate (which would allow the individual residents to also have their individual homes secured too or they can go F themselves). All residents are properly biometrically/documentation captured initially and then issued with some access control method. All other visitors must be properly captured as well.

 

[LazyLion]

I sign those entry conditions Forms by writing " I Decline" at the bottom where I am supposed to sign.
And I always give a false name and number.
Thus far I have never been refused entry.
Those things are useless anyway, just a time waster and an attempt at portraying some level of security.
But your security is only as good as your weakest link, and that generally speaking is a security guard who can be easily bamboozled or bribed.

 

[Lord Farquart]

I sign those entry conditions Forms by writing " I Decline" at the bottom where I am supposed to sign.
And I always give a false name and number.
Thus far I have never been refused entry.
Those things are useless anyway, just a time waster and an attempt at portraying some level of security.
But your security is only as good as your weakest link, and that generally speaking is a security guard who can be easily bamboozled or bribed.

Fine, but ours scan drivers license, car reg disk and take your fingerprint. Good luck with your false name there.

 

[Lord Farquart]

I think it is a principle question: Why should visitors not be trusted and searched and residents not? In our estate of a good 230 houses for example I barely know my adjacent neighbors and even there I wouldn't know if that person is a criminal. So in that line of thought it should then be reasonable to expect that every person leaving a residential estate could be exposed to a random search?

I find this idea generally stupid for any residential area - it will not prevent crime. Random visitors with criminal intent would find other ways to lift stuff. Eventually visitors will become regulars and then those aspects of control are meaningless.

I am surprised by one estate that they were perfectly fine accepting the vetting of estate agents for potential house buyers (i.e. estate agents gave random people access codes which implied that those randoms were "trusted").

My comment was towards your "visitor refuse to id him/herself" As for searches, only contractors or non residents transporting stuff gets searched. Not foolproof, but it helps.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Fine, but ours scan drivers license, car reg disk and take your fingerprint. Good luck with your false name there.

And what is your estate going to do when POPI comes into force?

 

[ToxicBunny]

My comment was towards your "visitor refuse to id him/herself" As for searches, only contractors or non residents transporting stuff gets searched. Not foolproof, but it helps.

On entry, possibly yes a search can be a requirement before entry is granted though it can still be declined by law.
On exit, I would have full right of refusal and the estate can do NOTHING to stop me leaving or forcing the search.

 

[LazyLion]

Fine, but ours scan drivers license, car reg disk and take your fingerprint. Good luck with your false name there.

Doesn't matter, you do not have my permission to do anything with that information.

I've never had to hand over my fingerprint yet thus far.

 

[Werfetter]

Okay great so they search my car. How do they know if the laptop in the boot is stolen or not? Or the tool box? Or how about the cash in my wallet? Or my cellphone?

Searches are a waste of time unless you register every item the person enters with as well. If the criminal tries to leave with a car load of stolen goods and then you would probably be able to see what the hell is going on without a search.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Okay great so they search my car. How do they know if the laptop in the boot is stolen or not? Or the tool box? Or how about the cash in my wallet? Or my cellphone?

Searches are a waste of time unless you register every item the person enters with as well. If the criminal tries to leave with a car load of stolen goods and then you would probably be able to see what the hell is going on without a search.

What if I'm visiting my mate and he decides to give me a whole lot of stuff? Then your initial "register" is just as meaningless.

 

[Werfetter]

So I enter give fake details and leave with a stolen vehicle. Stolen drivers license and I wonder if the guard would even notice... Does the system verify the number plate of the vehicle I leave with the vehicle I entered with?


No, but they searched the car the criminal was busy stealing at the time...

 

[Werfetter]

What if I'm visiting my mate and he decides to give me a whole lot of stuff? Then your initial "register" is just as meaningless.

That is exactly my point. You cannot control it. Or what if I am buying something from a resident? Does he give me a slip? Or just a letter? If I got my hands on the template how would the guard know if its a resident's signature or not...?

 

[pinball wizard]

If you live in the same estate as I, I would hope they throw your visitor out/refuse entry. What does that person have to hide by not wanting his details to be recorded?

That's the same retarded argument the morons use against nsa spying. Don't be dumb.

 

[KingMikel]

I lived in Greenstone Ridge where crime was rife. I fully support searching upon exit.

 

[Werfetter]

I lived in Greenstone Ridge where crime was rife. I fully support searching upon exit.

Have they started searching and how has the crime rate been affected?

 

[Aghori]

We live in Africa. A R50 note will get the gate open without you being subject to biometrics or any of that ****.

 

[Trompie67]

It seems this provokes lots of emotion & very little sense.

Our estate has biometric access.

Residents access & egress via fingerprint scanner. For those whose fingerprints do not scan they are given a card. Card needs to be validated every 30 days.

Tenants are included as residents, however prior to any property owner accepting a tenant the tenant has to be vetted by the managing agent to check for criminal record, outstanding warrants, debt judgements etc.

All visitors have their vehicle license scanned & drivers license or ID card scanned. The scanner is an "intelligent scanner" & displays vehicle details (so a stolen license disc won't work - arrive in a Fortuner with a license disc for a Clio & SAPS are summoned), likewise with the drivers license - it shows the license holders photo. So a fake license will also be spotted.

Random vehicle searches take place - residents & visitors. An example - I sold some Hi-Fi equipment recently. Guards searched the car & before the person was allowed to exit I was phoned & had to give the OK that I knew he had the goods.

All the above are in our estate rules - as an owner or tenant you agree to abide by the rules, so no getting shirty when you or your visitors are searched.

All the above depends on the human factor, which is the weakest link every single time.