Who Owns South Africa?

[NewsFlash]

Agree 100% kilps.

Above was not directed at you, but at Newsflash, just so I could be sure he was aware of where I stand, as his previous post could be interpreted in a number of ways

Thats me, you can bet always on the prowl. I am not commenting on what you said Debbie2 only referring to what is going on in reality. For many here democracy means the ANC is the leaders due to votes received and they can do as they please without consultation, that is what they are doing anyway. Opposition and minority views do not count at all.

 

[BandwidthAddict]

Hello.

The question reminds me of something a really smart person once told me about ownership. He said (paraphrasing):

Only those that can keep it, own it

Peace.

 

[daysleeper]

There is no legal requirement of a referendum!

Bills amending the Constitution

74. (1) Section 1 and this subsection may be amended by a Bill passed

by *

the National Assembly, with a supporting vote of at least 75 per cent of its members; and
the National Council of Provinces, with a supporting vote of at least six provinces.
(2) Chapter 2 may be amended by a Bill passed by *

the National Assembly, with a supporting vote of at least two thirds of its members; and
the National Council of Provinces, with a supporting vote of at least six provinces.
(3) Any other provision of the Constitution may be amended by a Bill passed *

by the National Assembly, with a supporting vote of at least two thirds of its members; and
also by the National Council of Provinces, with a supporting vote of at least six provinces, if the amendment *
relates to a matter that affects the Council;
alters provincial boundaries, powers, functions or institutions; or
amends a provision that deals specifically with a provincial matter.
(4) A Bill amending the Constitution may not include provisions other than constitutional amendments and matters connected with the amendments.

(5) At least 30 days before a Bill amending the Constitution is introduced in terms of section 73(2), the person or committee intending to introduce the Bill must *

publish in the national Government Gazette, and in accordance with the rules and orders of the National Assembly, particulars of the proposed amendment for public comment;
submit, in accordance with the rules and orders of the Assembly, those particulars to the provincial legislatures for their views; and
submit, in accordance with the rules and orders of the National Council of Provinces, those particulars to the Council for a public debate, if the proposed amendment is not an amendment that is required to be passed by the Council.


Where do you guys get this idea. Its the blind leading the gullible!

 

[chiskop]

How many times has the constitution been amended since it was first written? There is this myth that the ANC can, and wants to, rewrite the constitution willly-nilly.

It is the opposition parties, the DA and the ACDP, that seem more interested in changing it.

 

[Debbie]

Newsflash- I agree and I too think that the ANC needs to go on a "Democracy101" refresher course. Thing that concern me:
* ANC's centralisation of power
* Censorship in various guises
* Sneaky politics (will not explain this further)
* Lack of accountability!!!!!

daysleeper, noone said there was a legal requirement for a referendum, we were just tossing the idea around Thanks for that info you posted.

chiskop, I am unsure how any times it has been amended. A few.....????

 

[kilo39]

So who were you really trying to quote? Me or this richard guy?

Ah sorry supersunbird (my bad edit,) yes RichardP.

"Um excuse me: the black people of South Africa are as much invaders as anybody else."

 

[jontyB]

How many times has the constitution been amended since it was first written? There is this myth that the ANC can, and wants to, rewrite the constitution willly-nilly.

It is the opposition parties, the DA and the ACDP, that seem more interested in changing it.

There have already been 5 major amendments to the constitution.

 

[Debbie]

Thanks jontyB, that answers a question I've had for a while but been too lazy to find out the answer to!

 

[kilo39]

There have already been 5 major amendments to the constitution.

Care to list them jontyB?

 

[jontyB]

• Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Act 35 of 1997
  To amend the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, so as to make further provision in relation to the oath sworn or affirmation made by an Acting President; to extend the cut-off date in respect of the granting of amnesty; and to provide matters which are incidental therewith.
• Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Act 65 of 1998
  To amend the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, so as to extend the term of Municipal Councils; to provide for the designation of alternates in respect of certain members of the Judicial Service Commission; to amend the name of the Human Rights Commission; to adjust the powers of the Public Service Commission; and to extend and modify the application of transitional arrangements in respect of local government; and to provide for matters connected therewith.
• Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Act 87 of 1998
  To amend the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, so as to provide that, where a municipal boundary is determined across a provincial boundary, national legislation must make provision for establishing a municipality of a type agreed to by the provincial governments concerned and for the exercising of executive authority over that municipality; and to provide for matters connected therewith.
• Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Act 2 of 1999
  To amend the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, so as to allow a proclamation calling and setting dates for an election of the National Assembly to be issued either before or after the expiry of the term of the National Assembly; and to dispense with the requirement that the chairperson and deputy chairperson of the Financial and Fiscal Commission must be full-time members of the Commission; and to provide for matters connected therewith.
• Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Act 3 of 1999
  To amend the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, so as to enable a proclamation calling and setting dates for an election of a provincial legislature to be issued either before or after the expiry of the term of that legislature; and to provide for the allocation of undistributed delegates in a provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces in a case where competing surpluses are equal; and to provide for matters connected therewith.

Additionally, there have been several (between 50 and 150) minor amendments, including revision of phrases, deletion of words and phrases, combining of sections, etc.

Several Acts that have been instituted in direct relation to the Constitution have undergone several Amendments, as well as new Acts having being promulgated because of such relation, the latest being the Civil Union Act.

 

[kilo39]

• Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Act 2 of 1999
  To amend the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, so as to allow a proclamation calling and setting dates for an election of the National Assembly to be issued either before or after the expiry of the term of the National Assembly; and to dispense with the requirement that the chairperson and deputy chairperson of the Financial and Fiscal Commission must be full-time members of the Commission; and to provide for matters connected therewith.

Ah, thank you jontyB (pity I am not more qualified to make comments,) but somehow it seems a 'watering down' of power (more power to the government?) And my bolded bit above seems ripe for abuse?

 

[chiskop]

@jontyB, thanks - very informative.

Was floor crossing not as the result of a Constitutional Amendment? This submission to the Joint Constitutional Review Committee suggests that it was Amendments 18 and 21 of 2002?

 

[jontyB]

In terms of constitutional amendments floor crossing was promulgated as a full blown Act. In most cases this will entail a minor amendment which is not considered as a Constitutional change. There are several of these types, but the Act itself doesn't amend the constitution, however it may have demanded slight changes to wordings, or have additional paragraphs added that clarifies existing sections or paragraphs. In such instances it is accepted that such additions are not classified as amendments.

Obviously, like most things in legal considerations, this is more about semantics. In my personal opinion, I think such wording is particularly used so as to create the impression that the constitution is not actually being amended, though clearly the Act(s) is/are being used to amend the definitions held in the constitution. But in terms of chapter amendments, an Act may under some (and it's only happened thrice according to our research) circumstances imply amendments to the constitution, even though such Acts are not actually changing anything in the constitution. It can be quite confusing

There are several minor amendments which have led to Acts of Law, nonetheless these minor Amendments may well have altered the Constitution quite significantly, but remain classified as slight, minor or clarification amendments.

 

[Debbie]

In terms of constitutional amendments floor crossing was promulgated as a full blown Act. In most cases this will entail a minor amendment which is not considered as a Constitutional change. There are several of these types, but the Act itself doesn't amend the constitution, however it may have demanded slight changes to wordings, or have additional paragraphs added that clarifies existing sections or paragraphs. In such instances it is accepted that such additions are not classified as amendments.

Obviously, like most things in legal considerations, this more about semantics. In my personal opinion, I think such wording is particularly used so as to create the impression that the constitution is not actually being amended, though clearly the Act(s) is/are being used to amend the definitions held in the constitution. But in terms of chapter amendments, an Act may under some circumstances imply amendments to the constitution, even though such Acts are not actually changing anything in the constitution. It can be quite confusing

There are several minor amendments which have led to Acts of Law, nonetheless these minor Amendments may well have altered the Constitution quite significantly.

Thanks for taking the time to write this jontyB. Very interesting.

In your opinion, has this "but we're only slightly altering some definitions" allowance been abused?

//just wondering

Paints a

 

[jontyB]

Thanks for taking the time to write this jontyB. Very interesting.

In your opinion, has this "but we're only slightly altering some definitions" allowance been abused?

//just wondering

Paints a

In my opinion the Constitution Court is doing a brilliant job in preventing abuse

 

[IamCanadian]

IamCanadian,

I am so very glad that our country interests you so much. The time you spend talking about it, well, it must really have captivated your mind. We are a fascinating bunch

Debbie,

I was born in South Africa. I left SA in 1988. Contrary to what some people here believe, I left purely to explore the world and not because of the politics of the day or that I was a "chicken runner". Like many of my friends in Cape Town in those days, we were for the most part blissfully unaware of politics and the debasement of our black, coloured, Indian neighbours. We knew that apartheid existed, but we were more focused on our own pleasure to really stop and think about what was really going on. All we did was drink, surf, smoke dope and womanize. The only thing that really made us mad were the sanctions because we all wanted to be able to see the bands from overseas and also all the sports teams come over. We were very narrow in those days.

I went to UCT and for the first time I saw the bad side of the ruling party. The campus was invaded several times by the police and I also saw the radicalized black students in Jameson hall have their meetings and toi-toing etc. It was eye opening for me in those days because it was different. But it did not change everything in my mind politcally and I still viewed blacks and others with some suspicion because that is the way we grew up and were taught to think and believe.

When I moved to Canada in the late 80's, I was quite surprised at seeing white janitors and white road and construction workers and white dishwashers. In Canada my views started to change heavily. It was like the scales were lifted from my eyes and I really began to see what had really been going on in SA. And looking back in hindsight today, it is now really clear to me the depravity of apartheid.

Now why am I here. In my heart I miss South Africa and I am sad to see what is happeing there. I am just one voice who believes that I can make a difference even from Canada because I still have people in SA that I care about. There are also many expat South Africans who live overseas who are sad to see what is going on.

Perhaps, my persective can help to change South Africa in some small way. Who knows maybe something I say here will change the minds of people to fight for what is just and right. Canada is not perfect but if it helped to change me then maybe it can help to change someone else.

The real reality though is that I think SA is moving down a slope that will lead to something that it does not want. Maybe as some here believe, it will be OK, but corruption and crime seems to be the order of the day. Every country is faced with corruption and crime to some degree but it always seems that countries that are the most corrupt and crime ridden fare a lot worse than countries with lower amounts of it. If the government does not change then all is lost and all that will remain in a corrupt, decayed, tinpot thirdworld state like Zimbabwe and much of the rest of Africa. I am more inclined to believe that SA will become like Zimbabwe in 10-20 years. Just my opinion.

 

[Darth Garth]

Like many of my friends in Cape Town in those days, we were for the most part blissfully unaware of politics and the debasement of our black, coloured, Indian neighbours. We knew that apartheid existed, but we were more focused on our own pleasure to really stop and think about what was really going on. All we did was drink, surf, smoke dope and womanize. The only thing that really made us mad were the sanctions because we all wanted to be able to see the bands from overseas and also all the sports teams come over. We were very narrow in those days.

How true.

 

[kilo39]

Actually how sad. This country went into a state of emergency in 1976. You are trying to tell me that in 1988 you didn't know what was going on? You didn't read the newspapers and you didn't see the smoke on the horizon? (You heard no gunshots and saw no barricades.)

Pitiful. You are better off where you are if your political awareness is so small -. Klaar gelag.

I still viewed blacks and others with some suspicion because that is the way we grew up and were taught to think and believe.
-
Perhaps, my persective can help to change South Africa in some small way. Who knows maybe something I say here will change the minds of people to fight for what is just and right. Canada is not perfect but if it helped to change me then maybe it can help to change someone else.
-
Now why am I here. In my heart I miss South Africa and I am sad to see what is happeing there.

Don't cry for me Argentina. Sad, sad, sad? Catch a wakeup: my [-]traitors[/-] broken heart (that we had to go through all this in the first place.) Idiots

And you (and your kind) have got the cheek to come here and run down liberals. Idiots!

 

[IamCanadian]

Actually how sad. This country went into a state of emergency in 1976. You are trying to tell me that in 1988 you didn't know what was going on? You didn't read the newspapers and you didn't see the smoke on the horizon? (You heard no gunshots and saw no barricades.)

Pitiful. You are better off where you are if your political awareness is so small -. Klaar gelag.

Don't cry for me Argentina. Sad, sad, sad? Catch a wakeup: my broken heart (that we had to go through all this in the first place.) Idiots

And you (and your kind) have got the cheek to come here and run down liberals. Idiots!

Correct it is sad. I do remember the smoke and the barricades etc. I am not trying to excuse myself but that was the reality. We were under the ether and we just got on with our lives. I watched a documentary on North Korea 2 nights ago and it is amazing how much the state can control your mind. Many whites were living in the ether. Certainly all my friends were. Like I said we just got on with our lives.

My political awareness today is another matter. Moving out into the world does open your mind a lot more. For example, the ANC would never survive in a democatric country like Canada. They would be thrown out on their hind ends so fast that they would not have time to shut the door on their way out.

Liberal is as liberal does. Kind of like "stupid is as stupid does". Liberals have their place in society because that is the beauty of freedom. But to knock conservatives is pathetic. It shows rank intolerance of conservative views.

Allow me to give you example of a person who you would like to tear a strip off of. His name is William Wilberforce. Someone like William Wilberforce who is a total Evangelical Christian conservative would be utterly against liberal views like yours that are held today. I assume you hold many liberal views.

In 1785 Wilberforce underwent a spiritual encounter which he described as a conversion experience. He resolved to commit his future life and work wholly in the service of God, and one of the people he received advice from was John Newton, the leading evangelical Anglican clergyman. All those he sought advice from, including Pitt, counselled him to remain in politics.

What did he do. Well let's just say he changed the world for the better. Read more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce


Yes, I do have the audacity to come here and tell you liberals off because, I want what every normal person wants. To be able to live in a just society where everyone is free and equal and where people are judged by the contents of their character and not by the colour of their skins.

 

[Highflyer_GP]

I want what every normal person wants. To be able to live in a just society where everyone is free and equal and where people are judged by the contents of their character and not by the colour of their skins.

Actually, that would make you liberal too