Who Owns South Africa?

[IamCanadian]

Actually, that would make you liberal too

Partially. But liberal views endorse many things that are contrary to conservative views. Views such as evolution, abortion, stem cell research and homosexual marriage are not considered conservative, but I would add that people are given the choice to do whatever they want.

Liberals try to take things like "where people are judged by the contents of their character and not by the colour of their skins." and make it all there own when it is clear that it is not entirely theirs to claim. The above statement is much closer to a Christian worldview than it is to a Natural/Liberal worldview.

 

[Debbie]

Debbie,

I was born in South Africa. I left SA in 1988. Contrary to what some people here believe, I left purely to explore the world and not because of the politics of the day or that I was a "chicken runner". Like many of my friends in Cape Town in those days, we were for the most part blissfully unaware of politics and the debasement of our black, coloured, Indian neighbours. We knew that apartheid existed, but we were more focused on our own pleasure to really stop and think about what was really going on. All we did was drink, surf, smoke dope and womanize. The only thing that really made us mad were the sanctions because we all wanted to be able to see the bands from overseas and also all the sports teams come over. We were very narrow in those days.

I went to UCT and for the first time I saw the bad side of the ruling party. The campus was invaded several times by the police and I also saw the radicalized black students in Jameson hall have their meetings and toi-toing etc. It was eye opening for me in those days because it was different. But it did not change everything in my mind politcally and I still viewed blacks and others with some suspicion because that is the way we grew up and were taught to think and believe.

When I moved to Canada in the late 80's, I was quite surprised at seeing white janitors and white road and construction workers and white dishwashers. In Canada my views started to change heavily. It was like the scales were lifted from my eyes and I really began to see what had really been going on in SA. And looking back in hindsight today, it is now really clear to me the depravity of apartheid.

Now why am I here. In my heart I miss South Africa and I am sad to see what is happeing there. I am just one voice who believes that I can make a difference even from Canada because I still have people in SA that I care about. There are also many expat South Africans who live overseas who are sad to see what is going on.

Perhaps, my persective can help to change South Africa in some small way. Who knows maybe something I say here will change the minds of people to fight for what is just and right. Canada is not perfect but if it helped to change me then maybe it can help to change someone else.

The real reality though is that I think SA is moving down a slope that will lead to something that it does not want. Maybe as some here believe, it will be OK, but corruption and crime seems to be the order of the day. Every country is faced with corruption and crime to some degree but it always seems that countries that are the most corrupt and crime ridden fare a lot worse than countries with lower amounts of it. If the government does not change then all is lost and all that will remain in a corrupt, decayed, tinpot thirdworld state like Zimbabwe and much of the rest of Africa. I am more inclined to believe that SA will become like Zimbabwe in 10-20 years. Just my opinion.

IamCanadian,

Thank you for this post, and thank you for distancing yourself from the other person I obviously wrongly 'categorised' you with. My apologies.

I do think that the ANC has done an outstanding job in certain areas, and against some enormous odds. For the good the ANC has done, the ANC deserves to recognised.

However recognition of achievement in one area is not necessarily recognition of achievement in another, and on this note I agree that the SA 'democracy' is becoming increasingly precarious. Crime and corruption, I am so sad to agree, is becoming the order of the day.

I understand that you have some hope that by speaking out about these things you will ultimately be doing something to help. I understand that you do it for reasons of good. My worry, and my opinion, is that you do more harm than good.

Being outside of SA, you are obviously not exposed to what we are on a daily basis. We don't just read about unimaginable murders and arrogant corruption. We actually see it. We actually experience it.

The people getting brutally murdered on an hourly basis, these are not just us or even just our family members..... these are also other people we actually know- a best friend, the hairdresser, the next-door neighbour two doors down, that guy from the camera shop, that old maths teacher, a lost friend's child, a good friend's husband. You read the news and see "family murdered" or "elderly woman raped....again" or "man shot in face on highway". We read the news and all too often we know that family, have friends related to that woman, or drove past that aftermath on the highway.

We talk about the crime at braais, at funerals, at school, at work and at weddings. We talk about these horrific acts of violence with otherwise strangers, and we do it with ease. We are surrounded by it: "My friend/brother/father-in-law just went through an armed robbery, again". You don't have to read a newspaper, see a TV, hear the radio or have access to the internet to know that violent crime is rampant in the country.

We admit that we have enormous challanges to face here in SA. We have people who are dying of malnutrition, teenagers who cannot read, household's headed by 11-year olds, politicians lining their pockets, business ripping off consumers, govt ripping off the people, and criminals literally getting away with murder. To add to this, we got one lump of the population who thinks things should be handed to them on a silver plate, and another equally arrogant lump who refuses to share the wealth they have exploitatively gained, whether this was via a privileged position in apartheid, BEE, AA or plain old crime and corruption. Then there is another lump who are pre-occupied with meeting their own basic survival needs and naively vote vote vote out of community/loyalty/history/hope/been told to do so. Yet another really large lump of the SA population is obsessed with exacting to ultimate precision the answers to questions of "who is to blame" and "who owes/does not owe who what". Then add the whole 'black/white/colour' thing into the mix and it's amazing we South Africans don't kill each other more often.

My point is that we know we have challanges in SA. Many many challanges. And with your nick being what it is, and me not knowing you are ex-SAfrican..... well you know how you're allowed to criticise your own family, but heaven forbid any outsider who dares do the same?

I have lost my cool with you because sometimes your threads have come across as being sent with the intention of making South Africans give up hope. In my opinion, this is the worst thing that could happen to those of us who are fighting to make this country a better place. We have a lot of problems in SA, and I don't know how far I speak for others but I guess that negative comments directed at you stem from this sort "who's this someone who doesn't even live in SA or experience what we experience commenting on our country....?"

So, I hope that explains where I am coming from.

No hard feelings?

 

[IamCanadian]

IamCanadian,

Thank you for this post, and thank you for distancing yourself from the other person I obviously wrongly 'categorised' you with. My apologies.

I do think that the ANC has done an outstanding job in certain areas, and against some enormous odds. For the good the ANC has done, the ANC deserves to recognised.

However recognition of achievement in one area is not necessarily recognition of achievement in another, and on this note I agree that the SA 'democracy' is becoming increasingly precarious. Crime and corruption, I am so sad to agree, is becoming the order of the day.

I understand that you have some hope that by speaking out about these things you will ultimately be doing something to help. I understand that you do it for reasons of good. My worry, and my opinion, is that you do more harm than good.

Being outside of SA, you are obviously not exposed to what we are on a daily basis. We don't just read about unimaginable murders and arrogant corruption. We actually see it. We actually experience it.

The people getting brutally murdered on an hourly basis, these are not just us or even just our family members..... these are also other people we actually know- a best friend, the hairdresser, the next-door neighbour two doors down, that guy from the camera shop, that old maths teacher, a lost friend's child, a good friend's husband. You read the news and see "family murdered" or "elderly woman raped....again" or "man shot in face on highway". We read the news and all too often we know that family, have friends related to that woman, or drove past that aftermath on the highway.

We talk about the crime at braais, at funerals, at school, at work and at weddings. We talk about these horrific acts of violence with otherwise strangers, and we do it with ease. We are surrounded by it: "My friend/brother/father-in-law just went through an armed robbery, again". You don't have to read a newspaper, see a TV, hear the radio or have access to the internet to know that violent crime is rampant in the country.

We admit that we have enormous challanges to face here in SA. We have people who are dying of malnutrition, teenagers who cannot read, household's headed by 11-year olds, politicians lining their pockets, business ripping off consumers, govt ripping off the people, and criminals literally getting away with murder. To add to this, we got one lump of the population who thinks things should be handed to them on a silver plate, and another equally arrogant lump who refuses to share the wealth they have exploitatively gained, whether this was via a privileged position in apartheid, BEE, AA or plain old crime and corruption. Then there is another lump who are pre-occupied with meeting their own basic survival needs and naively vote vote vote out of community/loyalty/history/hope/been told to do so. Yet another really large lump of the SA population is obsessed with exacting to ultimate precision the answers to questions of "who is to blame" and "who owes/does not owe who what". Then add the whole 'black/white/colour' thing into the mix and it's amazing we South Africans don't kill each other more often.

My point is that we know we have challanges in SA. Many many challanges. And with your nick being what it is, and me not knowing you are ex-SAfrican..... well you know how you're allowed to criticise your own family, but heaven forbid any outsider who dares do the same?

I have lost my cool with you because sometimes your threads have come across as being sent with the intention of making South Africans give up hope. In my opinion, this is the worst thing that could happen to those of us who are fighting to make this country a better place. We have a lot of problems in SA, and I don't know how far I speak for others but I guess that negative comments directed at you stem from this sort "who's this someone who doesn't even live in SA or experience what we experience commenting on our country....?"

So, I hope that explains where I am coming from.

No hard feelings?

No hard feelings at all. There is always hope, but South Africans of all stripes and colours need to come together to create a new reality that is largely free from corruption and violence. That means that South Africans in other countries can also make a difference. Just because we moved doesn't mean we don't care. It's like if you moved out of your mom and dad's house, you still care about your old home.

 

[Debbie]

No hard feelings at all. There is always hope, but South Africans of all stripes and colours need to come together to create a new reality that is largely free from corruption and violence. That means that South Africans in other countries can also make a difference. Just because we moved doesn't mean we don't care. It's like if you moved out of your mom and dad's house, you still care about your old home.

Indeed, all South Africans do need to face realities and maybe SAfricans abroad can make a difference for the better. Fighting amongst ourselves certainly doesn't help

 

[Nanfeishen]

Must say the last 10 posts on this thread were great reading, good one to both Debbie2 and IamCanadian.
Debbie2 brought up a very good point about everyone talking about crime and problems all the time, and it made me wonder if that isnt part of the problem with most of us.
We no longer seem to discuss issues of value, or see the bigger picture of what is happening, we are being blinded by crime and violence, to the point where we arent paying much attention to anything else.
We are being fed fear on a constant daily basis, to the point where we have become fearful of acting or doing or attempting to act or do much to help or change the situation for the better, we are becoming increasingly afraid of getting involved.
There are a number of people who are going out and trying to improve the situation , but these seem to become less and less, and the positiveness of energy that surfaced at the birth of our democracy, is slowly being eaten away , leaving a state of fear and gloom.
I believe it is possible to change this, but the first change i believe is for many of us to change our perceptions of our fellow citizens, the gap between cultures is still too large, and it is imperative that this changes.
There is still too much suspicion, dislike and predjudice that exists for the good of the country, communities are still seperate and confined, and integration of communities is the basis for social understanding and growth.
The government in its wisdom relies upon this, this imbalance and non-intergration, it feeds off it and will remain feeding off it until we the public make the changes ourselves, they rely on this process to be slow, to fuel their own needs and to cement their power base. Languages differ from area to area, and the lack of proper schooling for many aggravates the first step in the process of intergration, which is being able to communicate clearly.
And lastly, we have no national pride, nothing to bond us , nothing to bring the people together, nothing which declares us as a nation to be proud South Africans, the crowning moment of pride in this country was RWC 95, and the moment we won that cup. I wish i could find a way to have harnessed the power and energy that swept this country, and let it grow from that point. but, as often happens we seem to slide in the second half and we allowed that to fall away into memory and history, i only hope we dont.
In my heart, i am a believer in the future of this country, (although i have been known to champion lost causes ) , but coupled with my inate nature of optimism, and a sense of humour even in the most dire of circumstances ,i still feel positive about the future, and will remain here to see what happens next.
There is a wildness to Africa which i love, an uncertainty about tomorrow, a sense of intrigue and danger, a restlessness and a constant stiring of energy which appeals to me and which makes living here so exciting and exhilirating, you never know whats going to happen next, and i think it is these qualities which people either hate or love about this country, it is these qualities which i miss when i travel overseas, and it is these qualities i yearn for and feel homesick, it is these qualities which make me feel alive, and African.

 

[LethalChicken]

Chuck 'Sipho' Norris owns South Africa and Oprah owns the actual continent.

 

[kilo39]

Correct it is sad. I do remember the smoke and the barricades etc. I am not trying to excuse myself but that was the reality. We were under the ether and we just got on with our lives. I watched a documentary on North Korea 2 nights ago and it is amazing how much the state can control your mind. Many whites were living in the ether. Certainly all my friends were. Like I said we just got on with our lives.

Everybody/thing seeks to control your mind: parents, teachers, authority of all kinds. The only laws that are enforceable are those that are agreeable. We live in an agreed world: apple, dog, tree, etc. Goes to upbringing: kids are not born with hate or prejudice.

My political awareness today is another matter. Moving out into the world does open your mind a lot more. For example, the ANC would never survive in a democatric country like Canada. They would be thrown out on their hind ends so fast that they would not have time to shut the door on their way out.

You are wrong. The anc is the result of a process: if a similar process was active in canada the anc would be the result. (!!!) Another way: people are just people with differing value systems, levels of education: honesty. I come from a world of total honesty. No lies. Witness Italy (and compelled to say: witness the american government and south america, and the rest.) They all lie. Are they corrupt? Yes. It all depends on the slant of the question: admittedly I berate the anc as much as anybody, and the dishonesty and corruption, and budget mayhem is 'sickening'. I hold one nugget in my mind: we get to hear about it which is more than could ever be said for the previous government. A step up as they say. We are living in a more transparent world: do you remember the crash of BCCI? So, the anc is not unique. As to the rest of africa; really when I think of corruption in kenya or somewhere, then I really think we could find equal examples around the world. Having said that we should realise we live in the english world: we hear the biggies but we don't hear the thousands of cases (I'm sure) in south american countries, or anywhere that doesn't speak english. Yes I realise that is a stretch when 39000 civil servants are found guilty of fraud, and I doubt the tannies were ripping the system beyond pencils in those days but certainly tenders: whole government departments, the railways, police, etc were 'the gravy train'. The english did not partake of those things. Same old, same old. And 39000 british civil servants? Well I'll use the old excuse; those are far older democracies. Crime? We should remember rape in any context is a crime of violence. We should remember that most of us never went to bed hungry or have kids to feed. Yes it is no excuse but everything comes from the top. I have seen more than one Special Assignment where the crims bemoan the lack of jobs. And when there is no direct message from the top (and the anc is very capable of transmitting a message) then we have the onset of lawlessness... it all comes from the top. Mbeki, Nqukala, etal are complicit. Today is not mandela's SA. History is being denied. All the little bits add up to a festering hole. The vice-prez? We have no clue. Have you seen the diplomatic kids at play?... and so atrocities are excused. So many prominent south africans of all colours have been killed in violence and road-death. More policeman is not the answer. The people in charge of this party are a scourge on the land and this includes Mbeki who is the most un-president a president could ever be.

I surrender to Deputy Health Minister Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20061210103826675C682909

Apologies for the long post: on the issue of who knew what when: I grew up with this stuff. We really should remember our history: the 76 riots really sparked it off. Countrywide. (District 6, Mitchells Plain, Sharpville..?) It wasn't us rioting. Then the repression. The whole sorry fiasco with people falling down the stairs and disappearing. At the time of the riots thousands in jail. The hangings in Pretoria Central. We used to sit on table mountain overlooking Robben Island, and hope the american fleet would sail into table bay and save us all from the idiocy. Vlok says it: we weren't listening. Duh. Or should that be Dubya. No I never rioted and I never carried a placard; but we did carry a consciousness of the wrong. (I left in 86.)

(I get to the point where I don't like white people anymore.)

Liberal is as liberal does. Kind of like "stupid is as stupid does". Liberals have their place in society because that is the beauty of freedom. But to knock conservatives is pathetic. It shows rank intolerance of conservative views.

Amazing how conservatives always say "shows intolerance of conservative views" where liberal by definition is an encompassing of all views. You guys have no solutions and I wish somebody would tell me what the 'right-wing' agenda is because I cannot get past the notion of gulags (and seems george agrees.) So please inform me of your world view because we are all criticising the anc: but I don't wish for anything else but one person one vote.

Allow me to give you example of a person who you would like to tear a strip off of. His name is William Wilberforce. Someone like William Wilberforce who is a total Evangelical Christian conservative would be utterly against liberal views like yours that are held today. I assume you hold many liberal views.

What did he do. Well let's just say he changed the world for the better. Read more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce

What are you going on about?

Yes, I do have the audacity to come here and tell you liberals off because, I want what every normal person wants. To be able to live in a just society where everyone is free and equal and where people are judged by the contents of their character and not by the colour of their skins.

Excuse me but isn't a large part of your rant here racial: about how the blacks are wrecking africa? I mean look at bob? And we are headed the same way. Never once on this forum have I said we are headed towards zim, a common refrain of conservatives. Isn't a large part of your rant how silly we are to be here (or similar?) Angelo springs to mind.

I appreciate your input: otherwise things would be less interesting around here.

(So we want the same things. Why then are we always arguing?)

 

[Lord Anubis]

Hmmm lets see. I don't think its the bushmen or even boeremag! Lets talk some sense.

Who owns SA =

* Mining - e.g. Anglo/De Beers 30%
* Petro/Chemicals - e.g. Sasol, Engen, BP 30%
* Manufacturing/Retail - e.g. BMW, Edgards 20%
* BEE 10%
* Banks/insurance/medical Schemes - e.g. ABSA, Sanlam 5%
* Farmers 2%
* Telecoms 2%
* SMME's 1%

Its all about business! Probably about a 100 CEO's who run things, oh yeah and about 5 Million Hijackers/Robbers/Murderer's/Rapists.

Pretty much the same recipe as in the UK/EU/HK/JP/AUS.

But who owns US & Canada?

* Rednecks, Football/hockey players, Hollywood, MS and another 300 Million Bumb@sses! 100%

 

[IamCanadian]

Everybody/thing seeks to control your mind: parents, teachers, authority of all kinds. The only laws that are enforceable are those that are agreeable. We live in an agreed world: apple, dog, tree, etc. Goes to upbringing: kids are not born with hate or prejudice.

Children are born with the capacity to love or to hate. There is no escaping this.

Parents and society will then go on to condition the child.

You are wrong. The anc is the result of a process: if a similar process was active in canada the anc would be the result.

The ANC was Formed initially on January 8, 1912 by John Dube, Pixley Seme and Sol Plaatje along with chiefs, people's representatives, and church organisations, and other prominent individuals to bring all Africans together as one people to defend their rights and freedoms

The process started almost 100 years ago. Why? Because church organizations and others saw fit to believe that, based on Christian principals, all men are created equal in the eyes of God. Unfortunately, the British at that time were amongst the most racist people that existed on the planet. So that was how the process started. It began with integrity and has ended up today in deceipt and corruption. You lead us to believe that the Canadian people would not throw the ANC out after 12 years of mismanagement. The would certainly be chucked out by the people. I wonder why the people can't get rid of the ANC?

I come from a world of total honesty. No lies.

I really find that hard to believe.

I hold one nugget in my mind: we get to hear about it which is more than could ever be said for the previous government.

Which proves my point that the state has incredible powers to control people and the way they think.

Well I'll use the old excuse; those are far older democracies.

Do you really think that these older demo suffered the same level of corruption in their intial 12 years as a fledgling democracy?

Today is not mandela's SA. History is being denied.

In 20 years from now, will it be Mandela's SA? 20 years goes by very quickly.

Apologies for the long post: on the issue of who knew what when: I grew up with this stuff. We really should remember our history: the 76 riots really sparked it off. Countrywide. (District 6, Mitchells Plain, Sharpville..?) It wasn't us rioting. Then the repression. The whole sorry fiasco with people falling down the stairs and disappearing. At the time of the riots thousands in jail. The hangings in Pretoria Central. We used to sit on table mountain overlooking Robben Island, and hope the american fleet would sail into table bay and save us all from the idiocy. Vlok says it: we weren't listening. Duh. Or should that be Dubya. No I never rioted and I never carried a placard; but we did carry a consciousness of the wrong. (I left in 86.)

My experience since 76 was on the other side of the fence. Looking back on it now is troubling and it will always be a part of me and who I am today as a person. Again living in Canada has helped me to really see the harm that was done.

](I get to the point where I don't like white people anymore.)

White people are not the problem.

Amazing how conservatives always say "shows intolerance of conservative views" where liberal by definition is an encompassing of all views.

I will give you an example. As a conservative, I view abortion as a holocaust. Liberals will take my view and be intolerant of that. Try to prove to me where a liberal view encompasses that abortion is wrong?

What are you going on about?

Wilberforce is a white christian who was the spear that shattered slavery in the British Empire. It took him 50 years to do it, but he did it.

Excuse me but isn't a large part of your rant here racial: about how the blacks are wrecking africa? I mean look at bob? And we are headed the same way. Never once on this forum have I said we are headed towards zim, a common refrain of conservatives. Isn't a large part of your rant how silly we are to be here (or similar?) Angelo springs to mind.

If it was racial don't you think I would be saying things like confederados?

I appreciate your input: otherwise things would be less interesting around here.

(So we want the same things. Why then are we always arguing?)

Dunno!

 

[Debbie]

We no longer seem to discuss issues of value, or see the bigger picture of what is happening, we are being blinded by crime and violence, to the point where we arent paying much attention to anything else.
We are being fed fear on a constant daily basis, to the point where we have become fearful of acting or doing or attempting to act or do much to help or change the situation for the better, we are becoming increasingly afraid of getting involved.
There are a number of people who are going out and trying to improve the situation , but these seem to become less and less, and the positiveness of energy that surfaced at the birth of our democracy, is slowly being eaten away , leaving a state of fear and gloom.
I believe it is possible to change this, but the first change i believe is for many of us to change our perceptions of our fellow citizens, the gap between cultures is still too large, and it is imperative that this changes.
There is still too much suspicion, dislike and predjudice that exists for the good of the country, communities are still seperate and confined, and integration of communities is the basis for social understanding and growth.
The government in its wisdom relies upon this, this imbalance and non-intergration, it feeds off it and will remain feeding off it until we the public make the changes ourselves, they rely on this process to be slow, to fuel their own needs and to cement their power base. Languages differ from area to area, and the lack of proper schooling for many aggravates the first step in the process of intergration, which is being able to communicate clearly.
And lastly, we have no national pride, nothing to bond us , nothing to bring the people together, nothing which declares us as a nation to be proud South Africans, the crowning moment of pride in this country was RWC 95, and the moment we won that cup. I wish i could find a way to have harnessed the power and energy that swept this country, and let it grow from that point. but, as often happens we seem to slide in the second half and we allowed that to fall away into memory and history, i only hope we dont.
In my heart, i am a believer in the future of this country, (although i have been known to champion lost causes ) , but coupled with my inate nature of optimism, and a sense of humour even in the most dire of circumstances ,i still feel positive about the future, and will remain here to see what happens next.

tx Nanfeishen. I agree about the negative energy thing- we're breeding it, not containing it and beating it down.

It is so easy and tempting to give up hope! It's easy to sit back and say, "well nothing I can do will change anything, so I might as well not do anything at all". It is far harder and more courageous to say, "maybe things can be different, maybe they can be better".

There is there is no obligation to make things better if you don't believe they can be made better in the first place. Giving up hope is the same thing as choosing to do nothing about the situation. Let go of the hope that things could be different and you excuse yourself from moral obligations to consciously make things different.

Hanging on to hope, on the other hand, means hanging on to personal moral obligations to 'do things'.

A large part of the problem, I think, is that we South Africans choose to play the role of the victim. Why? Firstly because horrific things have indeed happened to us. Murders, rapes, apartheid, violence, discrimination, robbery- we've ALL been there in some way or another. We really are legitimately a nation of victims in a way that no outsider could ever understand.

But secondly, we choose to be the victim because if we weren't playing the victim, then we might actually have to do something.

The prevailing attitude amongst SAfricans is "I have paid my dues (through crime, apartheid, AA, being born, colour of my skin etc).... and now you owe me society" or "society did x,y,z to me, therefore I do not owe society but society owes me."

We all are victims and we all have all suffered! Our national sport is not Telkom-bashing, it's self-pity. We are drowning in self-pity about 'what was/is being done to us'. We drown each other out with tales of who has/is suffering more. "Hello. My name is XYZ and I'm more of a victim than you because....." is our national greeting. This solves nothing, because at the end of the day, we're all still suffering....or have still suffered.

Consider a society where 48 million people are holding on to some degree of this "society owes me, I don't owe them" attitude. The real monster we fight is our attitudes- particularly our attitudes and beliefs about where we each, as individuals, fit into the hierarchy on the 'victims of South Africa' scale. We all think we're worse off than the next bloke, that our story is more terrible than most SAfricans' stories.

What we see in our society is a direct reflection of how we collectively think. How different things would be if every South African woke up tomorrow and thought "Horrific things have happened to me, and by any civilised standard I am a victim. But so too are the rest of my countrymen. They cannot and will not compensate me for what was done to me, no matter how much I have suffered and continue to suffer, because they too are also victims of the system we have created together."

Having hope means putting your victimisation in the past, it means letting go of the "society owes me" attitude, and it means being psychologically active and strong enough to recognise that there are things you can do as an individual to make this country better.

/rant over

 

[ubberfunk]

must agree that this thread is some good reading.

i ask a simple question:How can I as a south african make my country a better place to live? If i give a beggar R5 will that good thought ripple through to the next person and stop that person from rapping/murdering or abusing and stop this ?

I think alot of people here should ask themselves is this country worth saving? or is the only reason why you want to save this country is to save your own self?

 

[(DmZ)Wrecky]

Yes, Let's get up and dust off the past, the future is all we have left.

 

[jontyB]

Debbie2, I agree with you in essence.

I do, however, believe that South African society is split in 4.

Overly Optimistic
Somewhat Optimistic
Somewhat Pessimistic
Extremely Pessimistic

IMHO, and in accordance to some of the research I've been involved in for some of the big banks, the majority of South Africans are shifting from Somewhat Optimistic to Somewhat Pessimistic. The reason for this is simple. As a poor South African, it is very difficult to make ends meet, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to do so. The immense shortage of basic services and the huge housing backlog is compounding the problem greatly, and then there is the AIDS factor. Crime is naturally also a major factor. We are seeing a huge influx into the cities, and this has been carrying on unabated for some years now.

Despite sustained economic growth, South Africans are witnessing an unprecedented growth in the gap between the ultra rich and ultra poor, where CEO's and Senior Management in companies earn up to 80% of all remuneration of entire companies. Food inflation has increased year on year and the hardest hit products are maize, meat and agricultural products. Maize forms a significant part of the staple diet of some 60% of all South Africans.

Telecoms services are under utilised and generally very expensive. Despite huge mobile phone penetration, research shows that the majority of cell phone users hardly make phone calls, but instead accept incoming calls for the most part. The lowest priced recharge vouchers are the most purchased, a clear indicator both of low usage and low affordability of these services.

Given all this, a definitive movement of low (or no) income earners from somewhat upbeat to not so hopeful is not surprising. Unfortunately the government is not helping the situation by spending obscene amounts of money on political niceties, instead of making an urgent, concerted effort to truly improve the plight of millions of South Africans.

Unfortunately all of the problems we're currently experiencing in the country is entirely due to a severe lack of competence from the very top of government right to the lowest ranks of local municipalities.

 

[kingrob]

First time I'm thinking of printing a thread's contents for later reading...

 

[Debbie]

jontyB, nicely explained and I would not dispute your opinion but incorporate it into my own.

Absolutely, the generalised lack of competence in govt is more than a tad frightening. Gravy-train passengers are the worst of the lot (ooh, see how hypocritical I am, I'm doing the very thing I say I oppose- 'exacting who is to blame and to what extent'). Oops, anyway...

My point is that South Africans need to look to themselves in order to make a difference. We can scream and shout about things, people, places, histories, events and groups of 'other' people----we can protest, question, prod, poke, and try force perpetrators to be accountable.... but this aint gonna do a damn thing to change anything unless we include ourselves, on at least some level, as being perpetrators/contributors to the current state of our country.

We may not be the highest perpetrators of crime or corruption, but we are contributors. We are contributors in the sense that we don't hold the image of a future, better South Africa up high. We don't shine that image and we don't polish it. We don't run out to tell others about what we believe can be done. As Nanfeishen said, we have neglected our hopes for tomorrow... we have allowed the vibrant image of a better future that we once held to be overwhelmed "by memory and history"....to which I think we can add "and present conditions".

As much as we are the victims, we are also the contributors of our own self-fulfilling prophesies. We contribute through the act of giving up hope....when we throw out hope, we throw out moral obligation to change things. We throw away the responsibility to do something. We stop trying to make things better. We don't live the ideal. We make enemies of our brothers and sisters who also feel like they are the real victim in all this. When we give up hope, we send out the message that it's ok to expect that society owes you. We eventually become the perpetrators of a sick society by not valuing others, and then we are surprised when others don't value us. We will reap tomorrow what we sow today, just as we are reaping today what we sowed yesterday.

As a country we will never realise the ideal, the vision, if we don't hold on to the ideal and keep it as a constant companion. No one ever achieves something that they never believed in.

ask a simple question:How can I as a south african make my country a better place to live? If i give a beggar R5 will that good thought ripple through to the next person and stop that person from rapping/murdering or abusing and stop this ?

I think alot of people here should ask themselves is this country worth saving? or is the only reason why you want to save this country is to save your own self?

How can you make SA a better place? Realise that you are personally responsible- maybe or maybe not for the past, but certainly for the present as well as the future. I don't say 'accept' this, I say 'realise' (i.e. understand how). There is a huge difference.

As for the idea of only doing good to others because ultimately it does good to yourself.....what's the problem? Isn't this how things should be.... serving ourselves through serving others? Imagine how our world would change for the better if we all internalised the idea that what we do to others we ultimately do to ourselves!!!!!

----

In a society of victims, the concept of victimhood becomes redundant. It is superfluous and destructive, and we must do away with it.

//rant may or may not be over

 

[Nanfeishen]

I think alot of people here should ask themselves is this country worth saving? or is the only reason why you want to save this country is to save your own self?

Of course this country is worth it , whatever gives you the idea that it isnt? and if you mean saving my 'self' , as in the future of my children or grandchildren ,or the generations to come ,then yes.
Looking after number one has become too much of a priority in todays society , the idea of community building is no longer important , the idea that we can make a difference as individuals doesnt seem to grasped by most, and part of the problem is this breakdown in belief in what the individual can actually do or has the power to change in his or her surroundings, but worth saving , undeniably YES

 

[mac_mac74]

The owner of South Africa

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p80/mac_mac74/377099691_37709_1.jpg

 

[mashilom]

So the Limpopo is a sea now?

Very funny indeed!

 

[mashilom]

IamCanadian,

I am so very glad that our country interests you so much. The time you spend talking about it, well, it must really have captivated your mind. We are a fascinating bunch.

On Topic- disputes of land ownership in SA are unlikely to be solved anytime soon. Disputes over land ownership will always be, not only in SA but all over the world. A quote I heard the other day- "the function of the law is to protect the successful thefts of the past from present ambition". Just about says it all.

I love the quote about other people's lives ...

 

[mashilom]

Debbie,

I was born in South Africa. I left SA in 1988. Contrary to what some people here believe, I left purely to explore the world and not because of the politics of the day or that I was a "chicken runner". Like many of my friends in Cape Town in those days, we were for the most part blissfully unaware of politics and the debasement of our black, coloured, Indian neighbours. We knew that apartheid existed, but we were more focused on our own pleasure to really stop and think about what was really going on. All we did was drink, surf, smoke dope and womanize. The only thing that really made us mad were the sanctions because we all wanted to be able to see the bands from overseas and also all the sports teams come over. We were very narrow in those days.

I went to UCT and for the first time I saw the bad side of the ruling party. The campus was invaded several times by the police and I also saw the radicalized black students in Jameson hall have their meetings and toi-toing etc. It was eye opening for me in those days because it was different. But it did not change everything in my mind politcally and I still viewed blacks and others with some suspicion because that is the way we grew up and were taught to think and believe.

When I moved to Canada in the late 80's, I was quite surprised at seeing white janitors and white road and construction workers and white dishwashers. In Canada my views started to change heavily. It was like the scales were lifted from my eyes and I really began to see what had really been going on in SA. And looking back in hindsight today, it is now really clear to me the depravity of apartheid.

Now why am I here. In my heart I miss South Africa and I am sad to see what is happeing there. I am just one voice who believes that I can make a difference even from Canada because I still have people in SA that I care about. There are also many expat South Africans who live overseas who are sad to see what is going on.

Perhaps, my persective can help to change South Africa in some small way. Who knows maybe something I say here will change the minds of people to fight for what is just and right. Canada is not perfect but if it helped to change me then maybe it can help to change someone else.

The real reality though is that I think SA is moving down a slope that will lead to something that it does not want. Maybe as some here believe, it will be OK, but corruption and crime seems to be the order of the day. Every country is faced with corruption and crime to some degree but it always seems that countries that are the most corrupt and crime ridden fare a lot worse than countries with lower amounts of it. If the government does not change then all is lost and all that will remain in a corrupt, decayed, tinpot thirdworld state like Zimbabwe and much of the rest of Africa. I am more inclined to believe that SA will become like Zimbabwe in 10-20 years. Just my opinion.

Interesting Story Indeed! Question is ... with all your experience, why not come back to South Africa, form another party or take leadership of a current one, DA comes to mind and apply all your skills to making this country the kind of South Africa you would like to see!