Who's who in the DA zoo

[Freshy-ZN]

Out of curiosity though - did you not consider SA's elections to have been free and fair?

Personally I was in the security forces at the time of the 94 elections. Northern KZN and I saw with my own eyes how minors with nothing more than letters from a local tribal leader stating they were 18 were allowed to cast their ballots. We were told not to interfere. I couldnt help myself. I even challenged a UN observer who was sposed to be checking documents of voters and he just shrugged his shoulders. There were hordes of minors at the outlying voting stations who were blatantly being used to boost the numbers. Im not saying if they were IFP or ANC alligned (although I did see some evidence).

I thus dont consider the 94 elections to have been fair.

 

[Tassidar]

This article does highlight a lack of Black DA supporters, but that's mainly bcos most voters vote for the ANC, and the same can be said of all other opposition parties that clearly have not won over sufficient numbers of Black voters.

An article like this should be of concern to the DA, as it shows an undeniable deficiency within the DA - an inability to convince Black voters to vote DA - possibly bcos the DA's leadership is seen as being insufficiently Black.

Until such time as the majority of voters [that irrelevantly happen to be Black] abandon the concept of voting [mainly] for the ANC on the basis of a misplaced feeling of loyalty to a bunch of politicians that fail to deliver on past election promises and simply line their own pockets at the expense of all voters, nothing much will change in SA.

I prefer to cast my votes [national & local] for whichever opposition political parties might be the most vocal about guavamint failings & correspondingly effective, and it doesn't matter which party is the ruling party - I have zero confidence that any ruling party would willingly keep its promises and deliver unless pressurised by opposition to do so.

Ultimately the DA & other political parties, should all get their own houses in order, if they want to stand a chance of being relevant in SA's political landscape.

IC, I very much agree with you on this.

Speaking to members of the DA, they claim that their party is based totally on meritocracy and non-racialism. Perhaps the majority of South Africa are not ready to embrace such principles, rather than the DA being not able to embrace African leadership.

Surely, if the DA had a black leader who wasn't as good as a white leader vying for the same position, they would be going against their whole non-racial manifesto?

 

[bwana]

Personally I was in the security forces at the time of the 94 elections. Northern KZN and I saw with my own eyes how minors with nothing more than letters from a local tribal leader stating they were 18 were allowed to cast their ballots. We were told not to interfere. I couldnt help myself. I even challenged a UN observer who was sposed to be checking documents of voters and he just shrugged his shoulders. There were hordes of minors at the outlying voting stations who were blatantly being used to boost the numbers. Im not saying if they were IFP or ANC alligned (although I did see some evidence).

I thus dont consider the 94 elections to have been fair.

Having only arrived in SA a few years after those elections I can only imagine the excitement the majority of the population must have had due to finally being allowed to participate in the democratic process.

Realistically though, as improper and irregular it was, do you think it made a difference to the outcome?

 

[kingrob]

"Sunday World is a young, feisty, exciting and unrelenting weekly newspaper. With a team of top journalists who speak the language of the people in the street as well as those on the corridors of power."

Angelo, are you the editor for Sunday World?

 

[Doges]

"Sunday World is a young, feisty, exciting and unrelenting weekly newspaper. With a team of top journalists who speak the language of the people in the street as well as those on the corridors of power."

And I suppose there's a nude girl on the third page? Based on the "article" you posted it's nothing but an ANC glorifying propoganda paper. Feeding into it's readers preconceived stereotypes of people of a different race....

Let's look at the so-called "article":

"DON MAKATILE

Joe Seremane stands as much chance of being elected Democratic Alliance (DA) leader as Condoleeza Rice has of being voted the first African- American president of the US – a snowball’s chance in hell."

Is this based on any sort of fact? Or is it just the writer's racist notion that white people won't vote for a black man? We have an excellent example of this not being true, right here in SA. There are a large number of white Christians in SA that votes for the ACDP, and last time I checked the party had a black leader....

"If you log on to the DA website, the country’s official opposition, Seremane beams a sedate smile in the head and shoulder picture next to party leader Tony Leon’s.

Both Leon’s and Seremane’s bios are among the in-your-face links the website offers."

I cannot fathom the relevance of this part...... Truth be told, the DA webpage looks much like the ANC webpage. Joe Seremane is the chairperson of the DA, why should his bio not be on the front page next to the party leader's bio?

"In another world this would mean something. But then again, the DA is its own (white?) world."

What is it with the writers obsession with color? If he had the intelectual ability to properly research his facts he would realise that the DA, and the parties it grew from fought for a free SA in a time when the NP ruled the roost. One can therefore say that the DA was part of the fight against apartheid! But, this picture would definately not fit the writer's (and Angelos) racist viewpoint.

"Leon’s sudden decision to step down from party leadership after 13 years at the helm has unleashed a wave of jockeying for positions."

As if this is not happening in the ANC. This is normal.

"Cape Town mayor Helen Zille may well speak halting isiXhosa but is the party ready for someone like Seremane, who, if he speaks the language at all, can do so with a black African grasp?"

what does the fact that Helen Zille speaks some Xhosa have to do with the DA's "readiness" to accept a black leader?

"Seremane himself says “ambition” is not a word in his vocabulary – all he’s ever wanted to do was a job of serving the people.

He’s quick to remind all and sundry that the DA congress will decide on who takes over from Leon, “not South Africa”.

The rest of the country would do well to give this internal process a chance, he urges."

And the problem with this is? Is it not the same way the ANC decides on a succesor?

"But is the DA ready for a black leader? Colour does not come into it, he says.

“The party will elect someone, an appropriate person, to serve them well,” he says."

You see, this is something a racist cannot grasp, the fact that a group of people (the DA) will choose someone to lead them based on his/her ABILITY to do so, and not based on the COLOR OF HIS/HER SKIN.

"Elder politician Mangosuthu Buthelezi is just as diplomatic: “I wouldn’t want to set a precedent by speaking on the affairs of another party as this would give them licence to meddle in matters of the IFP."

Understandable, and totally irrelevant....

"Not so, says Zizi Kodwa of the ANC Youth League: “Since its inception, the DA was never meant to represent black people."

Wow, no the writer goes to some intellectual giants for commentary! Please keep in mind that this group of clowns also sees Mugabe as their hero..... Zizi Kodwa is so blinded by his hate for everything white that he forgets that the DA, and the PFP before them fought for the same things the ANC fought for, a free and fair SA. Or had they already forget the role Helen Suzmann played?

"It stands for the past – white privilege and interest, driven by the philosophy of the supreme race."

I read through the DA's webpage and I could find nothing to substantiate this wild statement. Rather they stand for a free and open society?

"Tony Leon has been the symbol to achieve this agenda. Coconuts like Seremane, despite their ambitions, can never serve as the right symbols."

What an openly racists statement! I always thought calling someone a coconut was a derogatory term!

"Blacks like him have just been used in the DA to serve white interests."

Facts please? Seremane is a member of the DA, and as a member of the DA he works to achieve their goals. Their goals are to establish a free and fair SA with no racial apartheid style laws like those the ANC likes to propagate. It seems to me it serves everybodies interests?

"The bottom line, says Kodwa: “They can never accept a black leader."

Is he a DA insider? How does he know this? Or is it because of the fact that he will never accept a white leader in the ANCYL? This idiot is preoccupied with race....

"Majakathata Mokoena was in the DA for a year and left to co-found his Economic Freedom Movement.
He says he’s still battling to find out what black interests, if any, the party will serve.
“It is a niche party,” he says about the DA, formed from the amalgamation of the Democratic Party and the New National Party.
The majority of voters who choose the party’s leaders are white people.
“Blacks are just picked up along the way. The party is white.”
It is not ready for a black leader, says Mokoena."

Haha, to get a nice balanced view go ask a disgruntled ex-member with his own political agenda and ambitions. They will tell you the truth!

This piece of political propoganda is one-sided racist drivel with no basis in reality. The writer did not even attempt to get the DA's view. This is the sort of article typical of low-brow papers like the "National Enquirer" where the truth will never get in the way of a good story......

 

[IamCanadian]

Having only arrived in SA a few years after those elections I can only imagine the excitement the majority of the population must have had due to finally being allowed to participate in the democratic process.

Realistically though, as improper and irregular it was, do you think it made a difference to the outcome?

Good old bwana. Optimistic aren't you?

You have a lot of faith in the ANC. Sadly it is misplaced, and one day you will be winging your way back to America wondering how it all went wrong.

By the way, I assume that you still have assets in the US because when you go back there you will need them since the Rand will be worth nothing in the years ahead. Even now, your American peers are making way more money than you are.

 

[NewsFlash]

At least they are honest and fear the facts of reality and truth

"It stands for the past – white privilege and interest, driven by the philosophy of the supreme race."

 

[nivek]

Personally I was in the security forces at the time of the 94 elections. Northern KZN and I saw with my own eyes how minors with nothing more than letters from a local tribal leader stating they were 18 were allowed to cast their ballots. We were told not to interfere. I couldnt help myself. I even challenged a UN observer who was sposed to be checking documents of voters and he just shrugged his shoulders. There were hordes of minors at the outlying voting stations who were blatantly being used to boost the numbers. Im not saying if they were IFP or ANC alligned (although I did see some evidence).

I thus dont consider the 94 elections to have been fair.

I used to work with a girl whose age in her ID got bumped up by 2 years by home affairs so she could vote in the last elections..

 

[bwana]

Good old bwana. Optimistic aren't you?

You have a lot of faith in the ANC. Sadly it is misplaced, and one day you will be winging your way back to America wondering how it all went wrong.

By the way, I assume that you still have assets in the US because when you go back there you will need them since the Rand will be worth nothing in the years ahead. Even now, your American peers are making way more money than you are.

You really shouldnt be making unfounded assumptions - I make exactly the same money as my peers make. In fact with my considerably lower cost of living expenses I'd have to say I'm far better off. My house is mortgage free and its value has skyrocketed in value.

Besides - even if I left here why would you assume I would necessarily go back to the states? With my paperwork most of the northern hemisphere is open.

As for faith in politicians, particularly the ANC - I'm certainly not that delusional - they're a self-serving breed everywhere you look. Just take note of all the 'good' work GWB is achieving.

 

[jontyB]

I guess I wasnt clear. What I was referring to initially was the breakdown of bipartisan politics based solely on colour.

Out of curiosity though - did you not consider SA's elections to have been free and fair?

Personally, no. It was marred by quite a lot of violence, particularly in KZN, and I know of a lot of people who were told who to vote for (and they and their families were threatened), and acted on these instructions. In any case, the majority party won, which was the important bit to the international community as a whole and Africa in part.

Also, South Africa never had bipartisan politics in play. There has always been one majority and several minority parties.

Back to my point: though colour is the major racial indicator here in South Africa, it is not the only racial line. Currently the whites perceive antagonism against them from Blacks, however, and this is important - this is actually just a minor element at play in SA's political landscape. There will come a time (and it's not so far away anymore), that tribal lines will dictate the path of politics in South Africa. We are seeing evidence of it now with the Zulu boy vs the Mbeki "camp". And that is the path African countries inevitably always walk. Sadly, the violent nature of the history between the various groups invariably results in chaos.

What I would like to see in South Africa, is a non-tribal lines split in the ANC. I think the ANC is bad for this country now. Don't get me wrong, it was good - as a struggle opponent, but as a leadership body, it just doesn't work. There's simply too much room for corruption, and I think the ANC is festering with corruption and incompetence. but I don't want the ANC to split into Xhosa/Zulu & the rest lines. I would like it to be purely political and non-sentimental.

 

[bwana]

@jontyB - you raise some interesting points - especially wrt the tribal alliances.

 

[Nod]

Personally I think the ANC is still in a struggle mindset. They can't except that the struggle is over, and that its time to build something, and not break everything down. They created a culture of unrest and violence, and this cultire is so ingrained into their supporters, that it will take generations to return to "normal" (whatever that is).

Planning "resistance" activities, is quite a bit different than managing a country.

 

[kilo39]

I agree with the article.

I am shocked every day at the level of perversity in this country; from all of us and everywhere at all times.

That I am even having these conversations and these 'thoughts'. Perhaps I am suffering amnesia but I do not remember having 'this consciousness' in the new, new, south africa. Somewhere in the recent past a great shadow has been thrown upon the land where we are now discussing racial classification, or "those who don't like it must just leave this country," or issues of "being african," or even south african.

Having said that; we do exist in a glass bowl on this forum, in the sense, the real world out there that I interact with suffers no racism, >none<.

So where does it come from? It certainly comes from articles as first post. It certainly comes from the endless talk of AA, BEE, whatever, and the seemingly constant corruption, misdeeds, lack of action in this government: IOW, the more public cases the more rhetoric from members such as the ANCYL. It certainly comes from Charles Nqukala. It certainly comes from Thabo Mbeki and his "Great Victory." It certainly comes from Zuma and his machine gun. It certainly comes from Manto and her disdain of any opinion beyond her own while millions drop dead at her feet. It certainly comes from the public servants who won't answer questions, and are never available. How mucn more empowered would the GOVERNMENT like to be? But somehow it is our fault, and the dark days of apartheid. You tell me why the children are still learning under trees. You tell me why: murder rate, crime etal. The number of police suicides. You tell me why so many have died: you guys are in charge.

etc.

........ dang, look a spook.

And elsewhere: the innocuous chinese issue.

Who is anybody to question 'our' or any south africans right to ethnicity (this is exactly what the original argument/war was about?) Or who is african and who is not, or whatever, the question is superfluous but still somehow it is 'a major topic of conversation,' beyond issues like Kebble, or Selebi, or Manto, or the endless long list.

And... to cut a long post short: I am shocked Angelo that "you would agree with the article."

“It stands for the past – white privilege and interest, driven by the philosophy of the supreme race.

Read my lips: x-slavery, x-apartheid, x-nazism, x-colonialism, x-communism, x-cetera. Catch a wakeup and this goes as much for the likes of IaC, The Confederados, alan85, etal.

“It is a niche party,” he says about the DA, formed from the amalgamation of the Democratic Party and the New National Party.

I wish people would get their history right when they write this stuff. Goes to level.

And, yes it certainly comes from Tbabo Mbeki:
President Thabo Mbeki in 2003 branded critics of the arms deal as racist "fishers of corrupt men" and yesterday he did the same in relation to another multi-billion project, the controversial Gautrain.

A day after the cabinet dismissed allegations of conflict of interest against two of its own in connection with the rapid rail link, Mbeki used his weekly ANC online newsletter to rail against those concerned about possible corruption in the deal.

Mbeki said the ANC's accusers were not about to allow facts to stand in the way "of their determination to project the ANC as being nothing more than a cabal of mercenary politicians, posing as liberation fighters".
Gautrain accusations racist, says Mbeki Dec 09 06

 

[IamCanadian]

I am shocked every day at the level of perversity in this country; from all of us and everywhere at all times.

That I am even having these conversations and these 'thoughts'. Perhaps I am suffering amnesia but I do not remember having 'this consciousness' in the new, new, south africa. Somewhere in the recent past a great shadow has been thrown upon the land where we are now discussing racial classification, or "those who don't like it must just leave this country," or issues of "being african," or even south african.

Having said that; we do exist in a glass bowl on this forum, in the sense, the real world out there that I interact with suffers no racism, >none<.

So where does it come from? It certainly comes from articles as first post. It certainly comes from the endless talk of AA, BEE, whatever, and the seemingly constant corruption, misdeeds, lack of action in this government: IOW, the more public cases the more rhetoric from members such as the ANCYL. It certainly comes from Charles Nqukala. It certainly comes from Thabo Mbeki and his "Great Victory." It certainly comes from Zuma and his machine gun. It certainly comes from Manto and her disdain of any opinion beyond her own while millions drop dead at her feet. It certainly comes from the public servants who won't answer questions, and are never available. How mucn more empowered would the GOVERNMENT like to be? But somehow it is our fault, and the dark days of apartheid. You tell me why the children are still learning under trees. You tell me why: murder rate, crime etal. The number of police suicides. You tell me why so many have died: you guys are in charge.

etc.

........ dang, look a spook.

And elsewhere: the innocuous chinese issue.

Who is anybody to question 'our' or any south africans right to ethnicity (this is exactly what the original argument/war was about?) Or who is african and who is not, or whatever, the question is superfluous but still somehow it is 'a major topic of conversation,' beyond issues like Kebble, or Selebi, or Manto, or the endless long list.

And... to cut a long post short: I am shocked Angelo that "you would agree with the article."



Read my lips: x-slavery, x-apartheid, x-nazism, x-colonialism, x-communism, x-cetera. Catch a wakeup and this goes as much for the likes of IaC, The Confederados, alan85, etal.



I wish people would get their history right when they write this stuff. Goes to level.

And, yes it certainly comes from Tbabo Mbeki:
President Thabo Mbeki in 2003 branded critics of the arms deal as racist "fishers of corrupt men" and yesterday he did the same in relation to another multi-billion project, the controversial Gautrain.

A day after the cabinet dismissed allegations of conflict of interest against two of its own in connection with the rapid rail link, Mbeki used his weekly ANC online newsletter to rail against those concerned about possible corruption in the deal.

Mbeki said the ANC's accusers were not about to allow facts to stand in the way "of their determination to project the ANC as being nothing more than a cabal of mercenary politicians, posing as liberation fighters".
Gautrain accusations racist, says Mbeki Dec 09 06

And... to cut a long post short: I am shocked Angelo that "you would agree with the article."

I also agree with the article. But maybe not in the way Angelo does.

Have a look at this line in the article:

“Blacks are just picked up along the way. The party is white.”

Before I moved to Canada in the 80's, SA was what it was. Before black rule, SA was in a state of unreality. Only coming to Canada allowed me to see how stupid the leaders in South Africa were to hold back the masses. They should have tried to be more like neighbours and brought the blacks along side as partners.

Years of seperation and mistrust and a whole host of other issues have left SA the way it is today. Most whites always took the blacks for granted thinking that they were somehow a lower class human. Along the way the whites picked up their "token blacks" to bolster their position but in the end South Africa was always considered white by these white leaders since the time of Jan van Riebeeck.

South Africa is a very sick patient. As a patient it is on life support. Years of abuse has ensured this position.

 

[Angelo]

Kilo why are you shocked at the simple truth?
The DA is a white party whether you like it or not!

 

[Nod]

Kilo why are you shocked at the simple truth?
The DA is a white party whether you like it or not!

And the ANC is a mostly black party. So what? What point are you trying to make? Do you have a point, other than making unremarkable observations?

 

[kilo39]

Kilo why are you shocked at the simple truth?
The DA is a white party whether you like it or not!

Your "simple truth" above is a blatant lie and has no relation to reality. It is Orwellian Double Speak. Please check you facts before posting such drivel. And get a sense of history 'cause (that would be helpful.)

[Democratic Alliance]

 

[NewsFlash]

Your "simple truth" above is a blatant lie and has no relation to reality. It is Orwellian Double Speak. Please check you facts before posting such drivel. And get a sense of history 'cause (that would be helpful.)
[Democratic Alliance]

How can you expect that from a black on white racist, as much as you can never expect it from the AWB regime. Same difference in reverse.

 

[kilo39]

How can you expect that from a black on white racist, as much as you can never expect it from the AWB regime. Same difference in reverse.

You two should form a brotherhood, along with IamCanadian, The Confederados, alan85, and the rest. Then you can all be racist supremacists together. Move to Orania... take Angelo with you, y'all fit right in.

 

[NewsFlash]

You two should form a brotherhood, along with IamCanadian, The Confederados, alan85, and the rest. Then you can all be racist supremacists together. Move to Orania... take Angelo with you, y'all fit right in.

And the rest will then remain, blindfolded and live in denial. Before I join Orania I will move to Soweto or join forces in Iraq (there is not much difference in danger).