Why are black South Africans trying to reclaim land that doesn't belong to them?

Mista_Mobsta

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/snip

Hope that answers your question. Please tell me if you think I have dodged it somehow and I will try to clarify my positions.

Guys, really enjoying the tone of debate here it feels much more productive that what I have experienced in the past. Good schit.
People tend to become extremely defensive of certain positions instead of really having a chat or debate about issues. SA has issues. I highly doubt that you will find a large amount of people in SA that don't want to be party to any solutions. The frustration is what gets to most of us. In the end, having an open, honest conversation and having your beliefs/thoughts questioned is very enlightening! We just need to be able to have our minds changed.

Now - to the point. I have a big issue with policies that classify races with broad brush strokes. It always gives rise to identity politics. It also gives rise to a division among a unified populace. We should have an individualised system instead of a class/race based system.
People wonder why white people get so defensive about identity politics? It is because politicians portray white people as land thieves and apartheid apologists/denialists.

As for sunset clauses, we don't have SLA's to hold these trough feeders accountable for their promises/actions. Introduce SLA's in all spheres of government and watch the sunset clause fall into place.

Lastly, whilst MMT will go a long way in ensuring equality (if taxes are used with 100% efficiency), we are stuck with a system where utterly incapable politicians are put in charge of extremely difficult and complicated processes all whilst the politicians chop and change roles every couple of years instead of having experts and professionals guiding the way. No amount of MMT will help whilst the trough feeding piggies are playing identity politics instead of employing political neutral professionals to institute and implement the solutions.
 

Forum Reader

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I'd like to answer your question because I think it is a very good one, may I ask for more detail before proffering my answer?

What I would like to know is:
1.) What was her background?
1.1.) Previous work? How did dhe (I assume) lose that position?​
1.2.) Mental health? Any issues that had a hand in driving her into poverty?​
1.3.) Allied to 1.2: addiction? Drugs? Alcohol?​
2.) Education?
3.) Family history?
4.) How did she end up in the circumstances that had prevailed at the time of her passing?

Condolences to the family and to you, I mean no disrespect in asking the questions above.
Why do you ask such detailed questions when employers don't when forced to apply BEE/AA rules? They just look at black or white.

Your subjective bias is affecting your thought/actions. eg. If you see a white beggar and a black beggar you assume that the black beggar is in this position because you assume he was previously disadvantaged. Whereas you ask the white person a bunch of questions about their history because there must be some reason that he is begging.
 
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Dag9

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Interesting how cognitive bias revises history.

SInce you are such a diligent scholar of history, you will certainly be aware of the "free burger" status assigned to many of these settlers who were then given smallholdings on which to farm, with certain restrictions in place (tobacco is one IIRC.)

...now, ain't that some irony?
Since you are such a diligent scholar of history, you will certainly be aware that back then just like now, rich people and poor people existed. The rich were given the land the poor were the ones working the fields. But hey its Interesting how cognitive bias revises history.

...now, ain't that some irony?
 

SlinkyMike

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...having your beliefs/thoughts questioned is very enlightening! We just need to be able to have our minds changed.
Yea man, this is called learning, people need to stop seeing it as losing a fight.

Now - to the point. I have a big issue with policies that classify races with broad brush strokes. It always gives rise to identity politics. It also gives rise to a division among a unified populace. We should have an individualised system instead of a class/race based system.
Thing is that the problems we face are predicated on racial inequality. I can't personally think of another way to repair that than to try and uplift those affected.

Artificially if necessary.

If you don't live in an informal settlement for instance, then you won't recognise the utter desperation of the situation and so you might feel that the current efforts are unfair or overblown.

An individualised system is clearly ideal, but how?

People wonder why white people get so defensive about identity politics? It is because politicians portray white people as land thieves and apartheid apologists/denialists.
Dude a lot of white people are those things. Just like a lot of black people are racist af. Even toward other black people. Fsck do we do?

As for sunset clauses, we don't have SLA's to hold these trough feeders accountable for their promises/actions. Introduce SLA's in all spheres of government and watch the sunset clause fall into place.

Lastly, whilst MMT will go a long way in ensuring equality (if taxes are used with 100% efficiency), we are stuck with a system where utterly incapable politicians are put in charge of extremely difficult and complicated processes all whilst the politicians chop and change roles every couple of years instead of having experts and professionals guiding the way. No amount of MMT will help whilst the trough feeding piggies are playing identity politics instead of employing political neutral professionals to institute and implement the solutions.
I feel the sting of injustice just as you clearly do. The current level of leadership is pathetically far below any acceptable bar. There is no way to argue that what's going on is ok. Complaining won't change a thing and the more we point fingers, the further we push ourselves into our own little corner.

I think it's important to keep one's eye on the ball, study, think. Stick to your virtues and drive those things down within your teams at work, among your friends and in your family. As a nation we are weaker when we allow ourselves to be divided like this. We are being tricked into fighting each other when we should be unified in fighting corruption along with any forces that seek to profit from perpetuating misery. Both our own and that of our fellow citizens.
 

SlinkyMike

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Since you are such a diligent scholar of history, you will certainly be aware that back then just like now, rich people and poor people existed. The rich were given the land the poor were the ones working the fields. But hey its Interesting how cognitive bias revises history.

...now, ain't that some irony?
Were those poor people driven into poverty by a corrupt system of government and 50 years of systematic oppression? I'm just checking since you seem to be keen on having an argument with yourself as opposed to discussing EWC which is fallout from Apartheid.

Nice to be able blame black people for trying to fix something instead of blaming the Nats for subjecting all of us to this schit to begin with. We are all left here trying to figure out what to do with the fallout of that horror but in my experience people who argue along the lines that you do are unable to perceive the suffering of others, only you are a victim. Right?
 

Dag9

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Were those poor people driven into poverty by a corrupt system of government and 50 years of systematic oppression?
I don't know the story of all of them but my ancestors came here right after the great Irish famine that killed 25% of its people (1 million dead) and worked the fields of a tobacco farm.

I'm just checking since you seem to be keen on having an argument with yourself as opposed to discussing EWC which is fallout from Apartheid.
You're the one that brought up the point that only black people have had multigenerational suffering in SA.

But in my experience people who argue along the lines that you do are unable to perceive the suffering of others, only you are a victim. Right?
 

Mista_Mobsta

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Thing is that the problems we face are predicated on racial inequality. I can't personally think of another way to repair that than to try and uplift those affected.

Artificially if necessary.

If you don't live in an informal settlement for instance, then you won't recognise the utter desperation of the situation and so you might feel that the current efforts are unfair or overblown.

An individualised system is clearly ideal, but how?
Here's how you individualise it: You are only allowed to invest in/be a part of any BBBEE deal/tender/employment if you were directly discriminated against during the apartheid years AND you are also currently disadvantaged. The definition of currently disadvantaged is a loose definition but lets say generally you have to be under a certain LSM group.

Dude a lot of white people are those things. Just like a lot of black people are racist af. Even toward other black people. Fsck do we do?
Stop asking me to refer to myself or someone else as black or white. Refer to South Africans, racist or no. By removing race as a classification, you remove the discriminatory element. The world has proven time and again that we will always have class divisions, in our case it's not classes but races. I just want to add one very important caveat here - people should be free to dislike or hate someone for whatever reason. As long as they aren't allowed to infringe on anyone else's basic human rights and are immediately penalised, criminal or civil, for crossing that human rights boundary.

I feel the sting of injustice just as you clearly do. The current level of leadership is pathetically far below any acceptable bar. There is no way to argue that what's going on is ok. Complaining won't change a thing and the more we point fingers, the further we push ourselves into our own little corner.

I think it's important to keep one's eye on the ball, study, think. Stick to your virtues and drive those things down within your teams at work, among your friends and in your family. As a nation we are weaker when we allow ourselves to be divided like this. We are being tricked into fighting each other when we should be unified in fighting corruption along with any forces that seek to profit from perpetuating misery. Both our own and that of our fellow citizens.
You are 100% right in the above. SA won't change anytime soon. The political parties are absolutely horrendous...from the DA through to the IFP and pretty much everyone else. The only decently sensible party was the ZACP but their majority capitalist focus also has its flaws.

IMHO the media and various businesses should start calling out these political elites for what they are. The amount of pussyfooting around them and treating their events like a bloody celebrity event is ridiculous. Politicians aren't celebrities, stop portraying them as such.

This Zuma event of tomorrow is an amazing example of such a farce.

In the end, education (de-politicised I must add) is the only way to get SA out of the doldrums. Educated people should see right through the identity politics and celebrity antics etc etc and demand the hard truths from their politicians. Politicians aren't leaders - they are servants.
 

SlinkyMike

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I don't know the story of all of them but my ancestors came here right after the great Irish famine that killed 25% of its people (1 million dead) and worked the fields of a tobacco farm.



You're the one that brought up the point that only black people have had multigenerational suffering in SA.

But in my experience people who argue along the lines that you do are unable to perceive the suffering of others, only you are a victim. Right?
...as a result of Apartheid.

Are you really this thick??
 

SlinkyMike

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You said all white people have White Privilege. I was merely pointing out your full of Zuma. Also no need to be a Malema...
Ok that was kark funny! :ROFL: ...let me clarify: South African whites because of Apartheid.

That is the context of this thread.

Apologies for any ambiguity on my part.
 

supersunbird

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Ok that was kark funny! :ROFL: ...let me clarify: South African whites because of Apartheid.

That is the context of this thread.

Apologies for any ambiguity on my part.
Wish South African blacks could be privileged, but the opportunities to be that have and are just being wasted. Is that whites fault?
 

Smokey mcpot

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I’m no longer taking part in this discussion, however something I do agree on is that education is needed. Once everyone is educated they’d be able to vote the right people into power.
 

SlinkyMike

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Wish South African blacks could be privileged, but the opportunities to be that have and are just being wasted. Is that whites fault?
What are these opportunities and how are they being wasted? I'm not disagreeing, I just want to know what you are referring to.
 

The Free Radical

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Apr 6, 2017
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It doesn't belong to them, it never has, but because they breed like rabbits they are the majority and they will take the land.

But don't worry, history teaches us that they will call us to come back just as they start starving, at which point we won't come back but laugh comfortably in our new houses wherever that may be.
Spot on!
 

rietrot

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Housing for who... do you think people who need the housing can afford what the developers are selling?
The city needs low cost housing. People are living in shacks and backyards without any of the basic needs. These are the same people doing land grabs because the government is giving away land which could have been used.
If people are buying it then there is a demand for it.
 
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