Why defend ourselves

Kalvaer

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#1
I know I've had many a religious discussion on these forums before, but was amused today to see they had their own section (thanks BTW Cara, it clears the forums up to be used for what they are intended).

I was thinking about something while driving home though and was wondering why is it always (or at least 99% of the time) us Christians called up to prove what we believe in. I have many times posed questions back and most times I dont get an answer and it quickly disappears into the spam of replies.

It always seems like the Athiests and Agnostics are asking us Christians to defend ourselves. (Agnostics BTW I dont really understand at all. At least Athiests have the balls to stand up for what they believe in, ie: that there are no gods at all. yet Agnostics seem to sit on the fence defending what ever side they they want to at any given point in time.. is it fear that you might just be wrong and are to scared to admit it?)

Of course there are some people on the otherside of the scale again that just go overboard in my books and end up playing right into the hands of the athiests by proving exactly what they are usually saying about religon being forced down their throats from birth and truly understanding what they believe

As I said before, I'm a Catholic. I wasn't one up until last year though. I also believe in "Science", I can also give you reasons to how and why it is possible and how these things can be true.. It will take way to much time to type, and even longer to read. I will gladly sit down for a drink or two on a friday afterwork with anyone who wants to discuss it though

I'm going to try ask here now and hopefully somebody can awnser me..

Why must we (as Christians) always prove to you that God exists?
Instead, please prove to me that God doesn't exist! (and 100% conclusive proof as is always asked of us)
 
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#2
Because the concept of God requires the use of an imagination. Athiests cannot see anything except nature and other real things.
Try and disprove that there are fairies at the bottom of your garden, for example.
 

Kalvaer

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#3
But then why must we Christians always defend ourselves because they cant imagine. Its something which has made the world what we live in today, if people never imagined themselves flying it would still be something of "Myth and Legend". One has to imagine and believe in something for it happen.

But still, its BS I want proof that God doesn't exist
 

Nick333

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#4
Religion wouldn't have to prove a damn thing (as far as I'm concerned) if it wasn't for the fact that a lot of the time it is being forced into peoples lives. We have to contend with religion being forced on us by everyone from the more benign JW's knocking on our doors and the street preacher to nastier religious types who think they should have the right to prescribe how others should live (gay marriage critics as e.g.) and those who think their religion should be taught as scientific theory. There are plenty more examples many of them far worse.

So if someones going to tell me that their god says we must all do this or that, or believe this or that then they'd better be able to prove it.
 

Highflyer_GP

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#5
Kalvaer to answer your question very shortly, the onus falls on the person making a claim to provide proof, otherwise they are in the wrong by talking about it to others as though it's a fact. Atheists are not required to prove or disprove anything, because they lack a belief in a supreme being.

Let's put it another way - if a scientist makes a claim of discovering an infinitely re-usable fuel source, the onus falls on him to prove it before it can become accepted. The onus is not on everyone else to disprove that he hasn't made such a discovery. Hope you can see the difference.
 

Xarog

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#6
One cannot prove a negative. It's like asking Saddam to prove that he doesn't (well, didn't) have nuclear weapons. There's always some possible cavern where the nuclear weapons *may* be hidden.

Atheists assume God does not exist because they have never seen anything which would prove God's existence. But this doesn't prove them right, afterall - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Finally I don't see what's so mystifying about Agnostics. They know there isn't proof for god, and yet they are unwilling to assume that means that God does not infact exist. :)
 

Kalvaer

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#7
@Nick333, I have many times said myself that forcing your belief on others is wrong, I told our Muslim friend today they exact same thing in his spam fest and I said it above in my original post above, In all the discussions I have had here, I have stepped in to "defend" my belief, not force it on others.
You have however side stepped the question :D, If you believe with all your heart that God does not exist.. can you prove it to me? and how?

@ Highflyer GP, Sometimes proving something doesn't exist is just as important as proving it does. To use a simular scientist example, There was an experiment in physics called the Michelson-Morely experiment where scientists basically had to prove if ether existed or not, the experiment ended up in a Null resulted. Proving it didn't exist at all..

By the same token, do Atheists not talk about the lack of a supreme being as if it is a fact?, A Belief is "to accept something as true", for it to be true it must be based on fact. Saying that Athiest dont have to prove anything is as bad as some of the posts I have seen saying that Christians who blindly believe the existance of God is proof of their ignorance

I would therefore like to know what proof and facts athiests have that prove God does not exist for thier "belief"

@ Xarog.. go check up on that experiment I just mentioned that proves you can prove a negative or a "non-existance", People in court also have to prove all the time that they are not guilty and hence a negative.

As too Agnostics.. it seems to me they are too weak to stand up for anything and would rather sit on a fence waiting for one of the two sides to do the work for them
 

Aqua_lung

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#8
Finally I don't see what's so mystifying about Agnostics. They know there isn't proof for god, and yet they are unwilling to assume that means that God does not infact exist. :)
Correction...
Agnostics don't know if God exists, Atheists believe there is no proof


As too Agnostics.. it seems to me they are too weak to stand up for anything and would rather sit on a fence waiting for one of the two sides to do the work for them
Sounds like the smarter option to me...
Sit back, relax, and watch the show unfold :)
 
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Kalvaer

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#9
Everyone is avoiding the question

And you just proved my point though rob333 about agnostics not having any balls. Do you really think if God turns out to be true for an agnostic he is going suddenly smile and say "its ok you took the safe option"...

The smarter option sounds like the stupid option to me. Of people who cant think for themselves and would rather us Christians and Athiests battle it out. If thats the case.. I dont see how Agnostic arguments are worth thier salt and can be completely ignored
 

Nick333

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#10
@Nick333, I have many times said myself that forcing your belief on others is wrong, I told our Muslim friend today they exact same thing in his spam fest and I said it above in my original post above, In all the discussions I have had here, I have stepped in to "defend" my belief, not force it on others.
You have however side stepped the question :D, If you believe with all your heart that God does not exist.. can you prove it to me? and how?
No I can't and I don't need to. Just as you don't need to prove that he does exist. My atheism doesn't require anything of you and I would hope that your faith doesn't require anything of me. If my belief required something of you then I would require proof for my belief and vice versa.
 

Nick333

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#11
One cannot prove a negative. It's like asking Saddam to prove that he doesn't (well, didn't) have nuclear weapons. There's always some possible cavern where the nuclear weapons *may* be hidden.

Atheists assume God does not exist because they have never seen anything which would prove God's existence. But this doesn't prove them right, afterall - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Finally I don't see what's so mystifying about Agnostics. They know there isn't proof for god, and yet they are unwilling to assume that means that God does not infact exist. :)
The reason I reject the agnostic stance is that it implies a certain validity to the god hypothesis.

Its as if you are saying that there is a better chance of god existing than say fairies at the bottom of your garden, which I assume you would have no qualms in denying.
 

Kalvaer

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#12
No I can't and I don't need to. Just as you don't need to prove that he does exist. My atheism doesn't require anything of you and I would hope that your faith doesn't require anything of me. If my belief required something of you then I would require proof for my belief and vice versa.
One of the best anwsers I've ever heard to tell the honest truth. But I can bet you now that everyone else here is going to ignore the question I asked and just use your answer as thier as well.. more than likley the agnostics fence sitters.

The thing with religon or any "belief" is that you only really have to proof it to yourself, but it feels so good to have somebody else "understand"

You also mentioned how you hate having other beliefs forced on you, is it not the same for us Christians having to jump up and defend outselfs all the time by others trying to force thier "non-belief" on us.. looking at this forum here and reading through it is simple proof of that in its own right? Even your signiture (no offence of course) is trying to force your views on us.. and is the same as you said you dislike

But can you maybe tell me why Christians are always asked, and have been numerous times on these forums to suddenly jump up prove their reasoning for existance, when the otherside cant even prove their side of the story?
 

icyrus

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#13
Why must we (as Christians) always prove to you that God exists?
Instead, please prove to me that God doesn't exist! (and 100% conclusive proof as is always asked of us)
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't require proof that god exists as there is none.

Your question of "prove that god doesn't exist" can be turned around again and say that christianity should prove that allah doesn't exist or that yhwh doesn't exist or that even zeus or odin don't exist.

You can believe what you want, but most atheists see the natural world and require no super-natural interference. Religions introduce this interference, and that is probably why it is normally religious people being asked to justify their stories.
 

icyrus

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#14
But can you maybe tell me why Christians are always asked, and have been numerous times on these forums to suddenly jump up prove their reasoning for existance, when the otherside cant even prove their side of the story?
What side of the story? We look at the natural world and require no super-natural explanations, but religious people do. Isn't it then fair to say that they may, more often than not, be asked to provide some proof as to why they are introducing the super-natural?
 

LoneGunman

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#15
the only reason Christians find themselves 'defending' anything - is because deep down, they know
that what they're believing in, is an absurd, insane and downright laughable collection of fairy stories.

And this going to make those folks very very very insecure, defensive, and inherently threatened
(not surprisingly, given a reliance on imaginative fairy tales without proof, in order to sustain their
reality) - causing threads like this, where the 'attackers' try and paint themselves as being 'the victims'..

Aww, the poor Christians are under attack? Are being 'forced' to defend themselves? Well there's a simple answer and solution..

Don't defend yourself. Forgive your 'attackers' (as you call them)
and
Turn the other cheek. Just like someone in your religion once said everyone who believes in him, should do.
:p

If your fairy story has 'rules' - please obey them - or give up your fairy stories.
Don't try twisting reality around to make yourself feel better, that's not going to work :)
 
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Xarog

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#16
Kalvaer said:
@ Xarog.. go check up on that experiment I just mentioned that proves you can prove a negative or a "non-existance", People in court also have to prove all the time that they are not guilty and hence a negative.
BS. You're presumed innocent until *proven* guilty. That means the onus is on the state to prove your guilt. The accused defense consists merely of showing why the state's evidence does not prove their case.

As too Agnostics.. it seems to me they are too weak to stand up for anything and would rather sit on a fence waiting for one of the two sides to do the work for them
Then you obviously don't understand agnosticism.

Rob33 said:
Correction...
Agnostics don't know if God exists, Atheists believe there is no proof
Wrong.

Atheists believe that God does not exist, not merely that there is no proof. A person could believe that there is no proof for God's existence and yet still believe that God exists.

An agnostic will believe that there is no proof either way, and thus not believe either alternative.
 

Kalvaer

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#17
@Icyrus As I said above...Michelson-Morely experiment ... It works both ways.

You said their is no proof that he exists yet cant give me anything in return.. your theory is flawed since there is much more proof that he does than there isn't.

and I find this funny.. 3 people here who cant even decide what the meaning of athiest and agnostic is ?????

xarog, fine ignore the court example.. explain the Michelson-Morely experiment
 
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icyrus

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#18
@Icyrus As I said above...Michelson-Morely experiment ... It works both ways.

You said their is no proof that he exists yet cant give me anything in return.. your theory is flawed since there is much more proof that he does than there isn't.

and I find this funny.. 3 people here who cant even decide what the meaning of athiest and agnostic is ?????
What would present as proof that god exists?
 

LoneGunman

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#19
"proof"(noun)
1- The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
2.a. The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or
deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
b. A statement or argument used in such a validation.
3.
a. Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an
employment history that was proof of her dependability
.
b. The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.

------

Using the dictionary definition of 'proof' - there is ZERO proof that can be displayed and presented, 'proving' the
existence of any supernatural being called 'god'. (or anything else actually)
Sorry. Your idea's are fairy stories. Present 'proof' or accept that its a delightful fairy story that seems to make you feel better,
but which has no basis in reality.
:)
 
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Kalvaer

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#20
Icyrus... u've just done exactly what I said in the beginning.. twisting it around .. why must I prove it.. I asked the question to prove he doesn't exist now you come here to my thread I started and turn it around.. no offence but thats lame.

and LG everyone here is using the same arguments over and over used in all the other pointless threads here.. you just did it again, and its just as bad as the bible bashers going of on a tangent.. I never once said I was victim, just wanted to know why it cant be the other way.. and now that i've asked a question in return to have all you Athiest defend your belief.. nobody can give me a valid anwser.. Nick got close though

edit LG you also have no "proof" that your "fairy tales" are true so therefore athiesism is also a fairy tale?
 
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