Why defend ourselves

icyrus

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
8,609
Icyrus... u've just done exactly what I said in the beginning.. twisting it around .. why must I prove it.. I asked the question to prove he doesn't exist now you come here to my thread I started and turn it around.. no offence but thats lame.
I am trying to point out the problem in your thinking here. We have science that explains our world. Your religion goes against things that science holds as true. So if we look at the natural world through our scientific knowledge, there is not proof of god.

What would be proof of the non-existence of god in your mind? Can we say the age of the earth? The size of the universe? Evolution? What exactly is proof that something super-natural doesn't exist? What proof is their that unicorns don't exist? Or ghosts?
 

LoneGunman

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2003
Messages
4,552
I'm not attempting to present an explanation for our existence in reality.
Therefore, I am possessed of no 'fairy stories'.

Saying that because someone chooses not to believe in a fairy story for which there is
NO evidence (and calls it that, because of a lack of evidence) is somehow in itself, a 'fairy story' ?
That's twisting reality, to make it feel better for the believer in some fairy story explanation
for existence. That's illogical.
 

mooK

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
1,603
What are you people doing?

'proof' has no place in a religious discussion because no spiritual belief can be proven. People can be convinced to believe in something, yes, but it's done in a more equivocal manner.
 

Kalvaer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,855
I am trying to point out the problem in your thinking here. We have science that explains our world. Your religion goes against things that science holds as true. So if we look at the natural world through our scientific knowledge, there is not proof of god.

What would be proof of the non-existence of god in your mind? Can we say the age of the earth? The size of the universe? Evolution? What exactly is proof that something super-natural doesn't exist? What proof is their that unicorns don't exist? Or ghosts?
You obviously dont understand my religon at all or didn't read my first post about science now did you? Is it so hard for you to believe that I can believe in science and the universe and be able to comprehend how God put it into play.

If scientist can not prove something either way its left as an unknown until somebody proves it otherwise.

My point is again, you can not say conclusively that God doesn't exist in any form and can not prove it, Maybe just as I can not conclusively prove that he does. But think about that next time all the athiests jump on thier high horse declaring victory for something that they have facts or evidence to do
 

Nick333

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
34,586
One of the best anwsers I've ever heard to tell the honest truth. But I can bet you now that everyone else here is going to ignore the question I asked and just use your answer as thier as well.. more than likley the agnostics fence sitters.

The thing with religon or any "belief" is that you only really have to proof it to yourself, but it feels so good to have somebody else "understand"

You also mentioned how you hate having other beliefs forced on you, is it not the same for us Christians having to jump up and defend outselfs all the time by others trying to force thier "non-belief" on us.. looking at this forum here and reading through it is simple proof of that in its own right? Even your signiture (no offence of course) is trying to force your views on us.. and is the same as you said you dislike

But can you maybe tell me why Christians are always asked, and have been numerous times on these forums to suddenly jump up prove their reasoning for existance, when the otherside cant even prove their side of the story?
Sorry, thats just not the way it is. The point is you don't have to jump up and defend your beliefs. We may be deriding them but we're not attacking your right to have them. No ones knocking on your door or buying TV time to air tele ads on morning TV to tell you about the non existence of god. No ones trying to teach your kids that there is no god. No ones trying to tell you that you have to marry a certain type of person. No ones telling you that you have to have an abortion. No ones trying to tell you that the only decent form of government denies the existence of god. No ones telling you you're going to burn in hell if you don't use a condom.

As to why the onus is on Christians to prove the existence of god. The other guys have valid points.
But who cares if they do ? If you want to convince them then you'll have to prove it wont you? If you don't feel the need to convince them, then you don't.
 

Brenden_E

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
4,279
Icyrus... u've just done exactly what I said in the beginning.. twisting it around .. why must I prove it.. I asked the question to prove he doesn't exist now you come here to my thread I started and turn it around.. no offence but thats lame.

and LG everyone here is using the same arguments over and over used in all the other pointless threads here.. you just did it again, and its just as bad as the bible bashers going of on a tangent.. I never once said I was victim, just wanted to know why it cant be the other way.. and now that i've asked a question in return to have all you Athiest defend your belief.. nobody can give me a valid anwser.. Nick got close though

edit LG you also have no "proof" that your "fairy tales" are true so therefore athiesism is also a fairy tale?
You're being really stupid here. If you make a claim that something exists, it's natural that you should provide proof. If we lived by the hypothesis "disprove me" we'd get nowhere. It's laughable, and it contradicts common sense. And this is the argument that you brought forward, so you should expect the common, logical answers.

Your narrow minded approach to this debate is painfully obvious. Kalvaer, if I made the claim that fairies do exist in your garden, but you can't see them - would you believe me? Furthermore, would it make more sense for me to prove that they exist, or for you to disprove that they exist (which is kinda hard cause you can't see them). Like I said, this entire argument is really stupid.
 

Kalvaer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,855
Brenden i've never forced my belief on anyone, and I dont believe the Church should either.. you have the right of choose.

I'm sorry if I appeared to be narrow minded, and ended doing what I was trying to show is done by others the whole time myself. I guess some of the stupid replies by some people here drove me insane.

Lets see if I can try get this right. and make sense without somebody Fing it up again and twisting it. As I said above just before you.. I cant conclusively give evidence to Gods existance other than how I believe. Athiest by the same token can not give conclusive evidence that God doesn't exist other than what they believe...

So why then do we always argue and fight in circles for a pointless cause?
 
Last edited:

icyrus

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
8,609
You obviously dont understand my religon at all
I think I understand catholicism well enough.

or didn't read my first post about science now did you? Is it so hard for you to believe that I can believe in science and the universe and be able to comprehend how God put it into play.
I read it but it doesn't matter. You believe god is behind all things without proof but science does not require god, thats your add in.

If scientist can not prove something either way its left as an unknown until somebody proves it otherwise.
Due to your insistence I have come up with and performed a test for god: I say aloud "god, please materialize into my house and reveal yourself to me" and then I wait. So far nothing. So from this I can conclude that god doesn't exist. Now for peer review. I encourage you and anyone else reading this to conduct the same experiment and see if your findings differ from mine. If they do not can we then safely conclude that god does not exist?

My point is again, you can not say conclusively that God doesn't exist in any form and can not prove it, Maybe just as I can not conclusively prove that he does. But think about that next time all the athiests jump on thier high horse declaring victory for something that they have facts or evidence to do
No one can conclusively prove that zeus, the FSM, casper, Harry Potter, unicorns, leprechauns, ghosts, Peter Pan or fairies don't exist either, but that is not a reason to believe that they do.
 

Kalvaer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,855
Due to your insistence I have come up with and performed a test for god: I say aloud "god, please materialize into my house and reveal yourself to me" and then I wait. So far nothing. So from this I can conclude that god doesn't exist. Now for peer review. I encourage you and anyone else reading this to conduct the same experiment and see if your findings differ from mine. If they do not can we then safely conclude that god does not exist?
Thats just Pathetic and you know it, i'd like to see you try do a scientific experiment like that and have the whole physics community piss themselves laughing at you. I also dont think you understand Catholism at all, but thats not the point here

I'll say again.. In science which you all claim to believe above all "fairy tales" You need Evidence, and Facts, and a way to get those across to an audience to conlusively prove an experiment. I cant do it. Athiests cant do it.. SO its a HUGE MOTHER OF UNKNOWNS...

So why they heck are we always fighting about something that is going to get us all no where. And by the way.. most of you athiests get a lot more defensive than any Christian i've ever seen about your belief
 

icyrus

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
8,609
Thats just Pathetic and you know it, i'd like to see you try do a scientific experiment like that and have the whole physics community piss themselves laughing at you. I also dont think you understand Catholism at all, but thats not the point here

I'll say again.. In science which you all claim to believe above all "fairy tales" You need Evidence, and Facts, and a way to get those across to an audience to conlusively prove an experiment. I cant do it. Athiests cant do it.. SO its a HUGE MOTHER OF UNKNOWNS...

So why they heck are we always fighting about something that is going to get us all no where. And by the way.. most of you athiests get a lot more defencive than any Christian i've ever seen about your belief
You're not listening or you are intentionally ignoring what people are telling you. How many books of fiction have been written by humans over the years? Millions? Would you have atheists prove that every single one of them is not true?

The bible and your entire religion are nothing more than man-made fiction to me, why should I bother trying to prove that your super-natural fiction is not real?

Your problem is that you cannot separate your world view from religion and see that the world was around before christianity. I don't know how else to put this. I mean, I could say I see the following: 1 + 1 = 2 but you see 1 + 1 + god = 2. You introduce it and then clamor for us to prove that it isn't true. There is no more I can do. You are free to believe what you want.
 

Kalvaer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,855
Icyrus are you intentially mis-reading everything I say...

I asked for you to provide proof for one simple thing, that what you believed in was the truth. Yet you can not at all can you. Just as I admitted I cant either

Stop being so damn defensive about something that you cant provide any form of evidence to show is the truth and accept it just as you are trying to tell me to do..

See the topic of this subject... WHY DEFEND OURSELVES.. You cant proof it ... we have come to that conclusion here with everyone.. so why start making it personal.
 

Nick333

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
34,586
Kalvaer I know you're not a stupid person, I think you just can't let yourself let it go even though you know you are wrong.

If no one had ever claimed that there is a god then we could never have claimed not to believe in one. We would all be atheists by default. Theists made the initial claim regarding god, why should atheists have to prove anything?
 

Aqua_lung

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
17,128
@ Kalvaer
You don't need to defend yourself, we not questioning you or forcing you to belief us, you are the only one doing the attacking anyway

Let me explain my Agnostic view...
To me an Agnostic is like a detective that starts an investigation without a belief or bias, but allows the facts to speak for themselves based on the evidence available
Now I don't believe in the religious God of an old man with a beard

To me God means existence

For eg. The big bang theory states...
In physical cosmology, the Big Bang is the scientific theory that the universe emerged from a tremendously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago. The theory is based on the observations indicating the expansion of space (in accord with the Robertson-Walker model of general relativity) as indicated by the Hubble redshift of distant galaxies taken together with the cosmological principle.
Good, But to me as an agnostic that does not answer my questions...
1. What created/caused the tremendously dense and hot state?
2. Why does the Universe exist?

As long as I cannot find the answers for those questions I cannot be an Atheist and will remain Agnostic


Wrong.

Atheists believe that God does not exist, not merely that there is no proof. A person could believe that there is no proof for God's existence and yet still believe that God exists.

An agnostic will believe that there is no proof either way, and thus not believe either alternative.
That's what I meant
 

Kalvaer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,855
LOL Nick I've said it so many times above.. Not one of us can prove anything or the otherside conclusively wrong or right on any count.. so we are we all trying defend ourselves? and as you said.. why should we have to?
 

Brenden_E

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
4,279
Brenden i've never force my believe on anyone, and I dont believe the Church should either.. you have the right of choose.

I'm sorry if I appeared to be narrow minded, and ended doing what I was trying to show is done by others the whole time myself. I guess some of the stupid replies by some people here drove me insane.

Lets see if I can try get this right. and make sense without somebody Fing it up again and twisting it. As I said above just before you.. I cant conclusively give evidence to Gods existance other than how I believe. Athiest by the same token can not give conclusive evidence that God doesn't exist other than what they believe...

So why then do we always argue and fight in circles for a pointless cause?
Kalvaer, the reason this is going in circles is because people wouldn't change their view regardless of what the opposing party says. And, unfortunately, the guilty party to this is mostly the devout.

I think it was LG that already answered your last question. Atheists don't have to prove that God doesn't exist. Just as I don't have to prove that fairies or leprechauns don't exist. It's assumed they don't because the claim defies logic. If I say I can jump 2 meters I most likely won't have to prove it. We know most people can jump this far, so it won't be refuted.

However, if I claim I'm a fairy (which is "impossible" according to logic), then it's only natural that I should present proof, right? You're making the claim that God exists, so it rests on you to prove this. This is what it boils down to.
 

icyrus

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
8,609
Icyrus are you intentially mis-reading everything I say...

I asked for you to provide proof for one simple thing, that what you believed in was the truth. Yet you can not at all can you. Just as I admitted I cant either
No you are asking for proof of the improvable. Like I have tried so painfully to point out there can be no proving or disproving something super-natural by its very definition.

So it its place I present this: there was life before christianity, there were other beliefs before christianity. If god is real why wait so long to "reveal" himself and create christianity? I don't recall ever hearing about them finding bibles, crosses, churches or other religious paraphernalia in amongst the dinosaur bones.
 

Kalvaer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,855
@ Rob.. Ok I admit I did attack agnostics.. but the way you explained it makes a lot more sense, its actually a lot how I feel about things even with the big bang and everything else concerned.

Though while you feel you are still searching for that one answer.. I believe I have found it. Certain things like how the whole idea of the big bang happening first, and the formation of the universe, then the Suns, and earth blah blah. are all explained basically in the story of creation. It boggles my mind that somebody could of explained something like that when writting the book of genesis so many hundreds of years ago with out the scientific evidence we have today when they still thought the world was flat.

Of course I'm being told its a Fairy tale, by people who cant give me facts to say I'm wrong, while I cant give them facts to say they are wrong. Its a lose lose situation on both ends, and that was my point.. why defend ourselves to a losing battle
 
Last edited:

Kalvaer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,855
I think it was LG that already answered your last question. Atheists don't have to prove that God doesn't exist. Just as I don't have to prove that fairies or leprechauns don't exist.
and

No you are asking for proof of the improvable. Like I have tried so painfully to point out there can be no proving or disproving something super-natural by its very definition.
Have a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson-Morley_experiment

Its what I was talking about early and what I meant. Sometimes proving something doesn't exist or ending up with the most famous failure in History proves something else and ends up disproving everything else, previously thought to be fact

I guess I see the point you are all trying to make that since I'm the one saying he does exist its up to me to prove he does.. Though you must admit, you all have the easy option sitting back waiting for me to try prove it when you cant technically prove your belief either.

We both have two beliefs (lets pretend its got nothing to do with religon now) and Not one of us can disprove the other, its an unknown on both sides of the scale, but if we were scientists we would both TRY at least to make our "Theory" the valid and right one, If we couldn't prove ours, by disproving the other, we at least know ours is possible the right answer, Yet nobody can (I respect those that tried though.. but lost some for those who just said it was my responsibilty and well it proves something to me in its own way)

PS: Icyras there is a reason for what you asked about why Christinaty took so long to show up but its gonna take more than me typing to explain... I think parts if it can be found here though http://www.everystudent.com/menus/forum.html
 
Last edited:

mooK

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
1,603
Strictly speaking, I personally don't think you should define agnosticism or atheism as a 'belief'.

It's an absence of belief, we have nothing to prove.
 

Nanfeishen

Executive Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
7,494
To answer the original question, i dont think it is so much to do with proving whether god does exist or doesnt exist, whether religion is right , or science is right, or atheism etc.
I think what most people are asking of the religious ones, is to please justify why you believe in something that doesnt exist in a physical form, and that the belief in a higher metaphysical being or deity is not grounded in logic or on any factual basis.
I think people like to debate the reasoning behind ideas, the thought's or convictions that led them to make the decisions to believe in the things they do, but what is puzzling i think to many, is the utter belief that many of the religious people portray, in the fact that they are correct and everybody else is wrong, and that they are not very open-minded about the possibility even remotely that there may be more to life other than what they have been told by their spiritual leaders
Most of us at some point make a choice as to what we wish to believe, but many religious people are brought up in households, communities and societies that have ingrained belief systems, that they themselves take on or follow through tradition, peer pressure, family pressure or pressure from the community.
Those of us who grew up with the right to choose our beliefs find it hard and down right difficult to comprehend how intelligent thinking individuals can simply just accept something as it is, without having explored, read or investigated anything else. Some do ,and some return to their original point , but at least then it is from an informed decision, and is of their own choosing.
Proving or disproving the existence of God is not the point , the discussions, debates and arguments are what is enjoyed, how else do we learn?, how else do we gather information? and how else can we put our ideas or beliefs across to other people.
 
Top