Why does South Africa set such low standards for everything?

[Milano]

neva heard of them...

do they have a tamborine?

Do you have a point?

 

[AR_GTR]

Would love to know what the OP's site is all about. Seems to be an awesome idea that will only work in the States

Lack of investment doesn't make sense, a good idea sells itself and if not then you need to learn how to sell it first, crap ideas get investment because of how they're presented.

 

[shogun]

I want to be successful, so it only makes sense that I'd want to go to the place that would grant me the most opportunities to succeed. That's smart, and what a business leader should be.

You said "Government might not give a rats ass about SA entrepreneurs," which is exactly why it wouldn't be smart to stay here and why I'm complaining. It's because I've been disadvantaged by my location, and now have to deal with difficult US immigration laws.

And I want the competition. Competition pushes you. SA lacks competition and ambition which is why it doesn't compete on a world stage in most things, including tech.

Also, degrees aren't even that useful anymore. They just waste time you could have spent working on something practical.

I'm still young, so it was never my responsibility to build the tech industry here. I'm just disappointed that I don't have much support from the local industry/community to build something grand. It's so fledgling and basic that there aren't many avenues for me to proceed.

You are not being disadvantaged by your location, but rather by your lack of creativity and drive. As for your competition argument, if you can't cope with no competition (a monopoly's dream), then how will you cope WITH competition? If SA has such a lack of competition, you should be jumping in! That's why multi-nationals go to developing countries in the first place... less competition in new markets.

Your viewpoint on degrees is bullsh*t. They are useful, even if they are not the only thing that will make u succeed, they change the way you think. That you couldn't work hard enough to complete yours says much about either how lazy you are, or how little you work.

You are young, and it is because of that, that you should be building the tech industry here. You do realise that it's not like the construction industry, it changes dramatically every few years, and very young companies shape it in very dramatic and important ways. The way it looks now is totally different to how it looked 10 years ago. It's not fledgling, or basic, and accounts for an ever increasing proportion of GDP every year. It may not be the size of the US's tech industry, but it way larger than you could ever hope to dominate. How about you try dominate it first, before taking on the US tech industry.

You still haven't answered how our local entrepreneurs make it without silicone valley? Please don't point to one or two billionaires, and say if you grew up in the states you'd be one of them. That's laughable.

So putting that aside, how SPECIFICALLY have you been disadvantaged here? What grant did you apply for? What venture cap did you approach that denied you? What funding were you denied? What employee could you not find because their skill set was not available, and what was that skill set?

You sound like you haven't even given it a go. Your generalisations show your hand... and it's empty.

 

[noxibox]

And by the way, The Clash are British.

The amount of investors, the amount of money being invested, the internet infrastructure and penetration, news coverage, programming talent, the competitiveness and ambition etc.

Must be why there are many companies that are based here, with the products known and used internationally, or have development divisions here. In the latter case they're obviously hunting for the lowest quality, apparently.

You said "Government might not give a rats ass about SA entrepreneurs," which is exactly why it wouldn't be smart to stay here and why I'm complaining. It's because I've been disadvantaged by my location, and now have to deal with difficult US immigration laws.

And yet foreigners, from Africa, Europe, Australia, UK and US, come here and start successful businesses. You on the other hand are crippled by the location.

Also, degrees aren't even that useful anymore. They just waste time you could have spent working on something practical.

Even those who don't have degrees should recognise the value of knowledge. Practical without knowledge is nothing.

I'm still young, so it was never my responsibility to build the tech industry here. I'm just disappointed that I don't have much support from the local industry/community to build something grand. It's so fledgling and basic that there aren't many avenues for me to proceed.

This is why you would have failed dismally during the US' heyday.

 

[captainEO]

I’ve spent the last few days thinking about what I’ll do. I'm still meditating on it, BUT...

I can say this though: you’ve definitely changed my mind, and altered my perception of what’s possible here.

I just might actually stay, in Cape Town now. I’ll see where this place takes me

I’ve received a lot of advice:
The Silicon Cape Initiative link, Adii Pienaar talk, and all the posters who offered help/counsel etc.

So thank you.

I see that this place does have potential.

But, having a presence in Silicon Valley will ALWAYS be important. So, I'll only ever stay here for a short while.

 

[captainEO]

By your logic and reasoning in this thread so far, any University drop-out in America (especially near Silicon Valley) is going to become extremely successful.

:wtf:

Perhaps you should read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers to give you some perspective, because you definitely don't come across as one with your attitude.

No, but they have a better chance to become successful. At least IMO

Waze was started in Israel. So there's hope for you too

This definitely gives me hope, so thanks

Well we all cant simply run away because of fears of what this country will become or might become because its future is dependent on us. If we abandon SA then she will become useless with no skill sets. Something I think that has been lost with people is that they are extremely selfish the older generation fought and survived to make SA better for todays generation however if we cut and run what will be left for the next ?

At some point you need to grow up and think outwards

I see your view. And I agree. I don't want to neglect this country

Have a listen to Adii from WooThemes: http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/...-a-business-of-software-conference-2012-talk/ - talking about making it happen no matter if you are stuck in South Africa

Thanks for the link

More opportunities in the US or South Africa: US
More limitations in the US or South Africa: SA
Is it possible to succeed in the US: Yes
Is it possible to succeed in SA: Yes

After that it's all about preferences, perspectives, opinions, personal circumstances, pride, patriotism, shame, endless really...

Best of luck

yeah, I'd have to agree

And thanks

 

[captainEO]

Another thing that you need to understand is support. If you leave you wont have the comfort of family and knowledge of the land. This can create stress and misfortune and make it even harder to succeed.

WRT to medical research yes they have to go overseas not because SA doesnt have the systems oh no its because they are taken with dollars, euros and pounds. Secondly our funding for research has taken a hefty hit due to the cost of HIV and TB management. SA is in the midst of a pandemic dont forget that and for a disease riddled country it still doing exceptionally well.

We can blame our government as much as we like but if you keep up with US politics its actually not that much different. Honestly the difference I see is that our politicians sound stupider.

If you look at the republican party in the US they just as daft as the ANC
and the british fund homopathy with their government health budget which is madness and these are just 2 examples.

It took a south african doctor to pioneer a revolution in medicine working out in london medical univeristy .... and it was a check list a pre operation checklist. So yeah its not all sunshine and rainbows in the first world

I hear you

I work for a company that began as a startup in a house in Claremont, a few friends with laptops working crunch hours in a garage. It grew to be a market leader IT product in South Africa. It spread to some more countries. It made a key acquisition. Then another multinational IT corp with complementary products came in and acquired them. They're poised to become, if not market leader, at least the second biggest international player in their space.

So bollocks to you mate.

I wonder what company this is

Look at the bright side, mediocrity and lack of initiatives gives okes like you tons of opportunities to set things right by leading the way in the right direction.

I guess that's true. More power to me

God, I hate people like this who moan about their circumstances without trying to make them better. This pessimistic attitude is why South Africa hasn't reached it's potential, please go to the US and be a burden on them. Developed countries are called that because they have reached the limit of their potential, South Africa and Africa as a whole are where you want to be doing business over the next 20 years.

I think my complaints are somewhat valid. I just have a realistic view of possibilities. But I guess, complaining won't help

 

[captainEO]

Both sides present a demoralising picture of SA.

Yet one thing is certain though, the US today is not the US of yesteryear. In Skytrax's definitive ranking of top international airports, the US could not manage to place one airport in the top 30 in the world. Just one of many sectors showing the cracks. Will be interesting to look again in 10, 20, 30 years, and more.

Edit: Oh, some SA airports beat the top US airports, so it can't be low standards in _everything_.

That's interesting. I'm quite shocked actually

Would love to know what the OP's site is all about. Seems to be an awesome idea that will only work in the States

Lack of investment doesn't make sense, a good idea sells itself and if not then you need to learn how to sell it first, crap ideas get investment because of how they're presented.

I feel really wary about revealing it to you, or rather posting it online for all to see, since it isn't complete.

But, I guess sharing its category won't hurt.

It's a discussion based platform. That's all I'll tell you.

My vision for it is very, very grand. There are some products/services similar, but no one has perfected it.

 

[captainEO]

About "nobody tries here" - tell that to Mark Shuttleworth. Plenty of people are making decent money in the tech-industry. What are you basing your facts on?

As for being jealous of Americans? We have tons of innovation here - maybe the means to mass-produce that innovation is not easily available, so you'll find us losing people like Elon Musk, and other entrepreneurs to countries where start-up capital is readily available, but it is here, nonetheless.

I just love that our biggest figures for success achieve it elsewhere. They sort of reinforce the point I was trying to make.

There'll always be a limit here. But, you're right about being able to gain some success here.

You are not being disadvantaged by your location, but rather by your lack of creativity and drive. As for your competition argument, if you can't cope with no competition (a monopoly's dream), then how will you cope WITH competition? If SA has such a lack of competition, you should be jumping in! That's why multi-nationals go to developing countries in the first place... less competition in new markets.

But lack of competition in itself represents a lack of drive from the majority.

I know what I'm worth, and I'm highly driven. I have a lofty goal for this project of mine.

Your viewpoint on degrees is bullsh*t. They are useful, even if they are not the only thing that will make u succeed, they change the way you think. That you couldn't work hard enough to complete yours says much about either how lazy you are, or how little you work.

Lol. Different people will have different opinions.

They don't have much meaning to me. And I AM motivated.

You are young, and it is because of that, that you should be building the tech industry here. You do realise that it's not like the construction industry, it changes dramatically every few years, and very young companies shape it in very dramatic and important ways. The way it looks now is totally different to how it looked 10 years ago. It's not fledgling, or basic, and accounts for an ever increasing proportion of GDP every year. It may not be the size of the US's tech industry, but it way larger than you could ever hope to dominate. How about you try dominate it first, before taking on the US tech industry.

This is I can somewhat see. But the burden shouldn't solely be on me. And because the industry is comparatively smaller here, it's more difficult for my web project to gain significant traction

You still haven't answered how our local entrepreneurs make it without silicone valley? Please don't point to one or two billionaires, and say if you grew up in the states you'd be one of them. That's laughable.

Their "making it" is perhaps the lowest level of what those in Silicon Valley call "success"

So putting that aside, how SPECIFICALLY have you been disadvantaged here? What grant did you apply for? What venture cap did you approach that denied you? What funding were you denied? What employee could you not find because their skill set was not available, and what was that skill set?

You sound like you haven't even given it a go. Your generalisations show your hand... and it's empty.

I've already made my decision in an earlier post, but I'll still reply to this.

1. The lack of internet users/low internet penetration almost ENTIRELY kills my project from the get-go
2. Lack of tech coverage - the US has several publications, media outlets that cover start ups and provide opportunities for companies to market themselves.
3. Lack of investors - the only feasible place here for web/tech start up investments is Cape Town, otherwise it'd be very difficult to get funding. Plus, Americans fund more, which is important because businesses require large amounts of money.
4. Increased resource costs - cost of internet etc.
5. Programmers aren't as talented and there are fewer - America has many colleges, with a lot of highly skilled drop outs and graduates, a large number of which strive for a high level of success.

^Well, these are some of the problems I've encountered. And there are probably lots more. But the most critical is the no. internet users

 

[ToxicBunny]

Our biggest successes achieve it elsewhere? Really? are you trying to be dense? Where do you think Thawte was built and based? hmmm?

 

[ponder]

I just love that our biggest figures for success achieve it elsewhere. They sort of reinforce the point I was trying to make.

What do you mean? In the example of Mark Shuttleworth he achieve everything here in SA and made his money here ultimately selling to a US company. After this he moved to the UK and started up Canonical which is not really profitable yet, he's burning his money generated in SA hoping to turn things around over time.

 

[Gibson]

The op's generalization of education seems a bit off.

There are private universities, Monash, which gives international qualifications, but in the last rankings it was just above UCT. It does have benefits and its disadvantages, humanities in South Africa is very theory centric so my experience at Rhodes was of "learn the paradigms" and that's it (specifically Psychology).

Monash expected the theories to be done by 2nd year, and then learning how to practice the took priority, performing tests on ourselves and then learning what they measure and how to score them, incredibly relevant in the career most psychologists follow, research. I've found the difference is where your treated as amazing in S.A by just getting into varsity, other universities seem to follow a "so what" mentality.

But it doesn't mean international study's amazing, the Philosophy courses at Monash are rubbish compared to Rhodes, a friend studying an LLB at UJ was given lectures on jurisprudence by Thad Metz. Its a sad thing that people are taught the institution matters rather than the person you study under. I was lucky enough to work with people consulting on legislation for the U.N and who revolutionized their fields, and I know if I hadn't missed the application dates for Cambridge I'd be jetting off there next year because of the knowledge of how amazing these professors are (and alot of hard work).

The tertiary education in S.A is amazing but you need to pick a field then work towards it, to the point where you may need to go overseas, and from my experience local universities have a lot to temp academics when they're here.

 

[noxibox]

What do you mean? In the example of Mark Shuttleworth he achieve everything here in SA and made his money here ultimately selling to a US company. After this he moved to the UK and started up Canonical which is not really profitable yet, he's burning his money generated in SA hoping to turn things around over time.

There are a number of cases where South African companies have been bought because their products are world class. Not only that, but the buyers keep the company operating in South Africa.

 

[ToxicBunny]

There are a number of cases where South African companies have been bought because their products are world class. Not only that, but the buyers keep the company operating in South Africa.

Yup...

Thawte is one, Conlog (now Schneider) is another that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[noxibox]

Not unheard of, but pretty rare - the pay cut is generally pretty drastic. Factor in the fact that they're "rubbish in general", and I would expect that the bar for "top talent" is set pretty low here. I'm not trying to call you out here or anything, just pointing out that this combination of events is fairly atypical - they likely misrepresented themselves.

Not really, it means that they are not in general better than what is available in South Africa. Undoubtedly somebody thought the US was full of hotshot programmers, so they hired some and then learned the truth. It's also not a pay cut if they plan to live in South Africa.

 

[Elfreako]

Personally I believe you are being very close minded. This country has a lot of amazing diversity, if you haven't seen it you are just being negative.

 

[cguy]

Not really, it means that they are not in general better than what is available in South Africa. Undoubtedly somebody thought the US was full of hotshot programmers, so they hired some and then learned the truth. It's also not a pay cut if they plan to live in South Africa.

Huh? ow do you get from "are rubbish in general" to meaning not better in general? I agree with your statement, but that is not what was being said.

Also, for top talent, SA really is a massive pay cut - I am already factoring in the cost of living reduction.

 

[zippy]

Why do you think its easier in the US?

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

Afraid of risk. Only want the easy way. The problem with the easy way is that it's already been done.

South Africa has produced a lot of really talented people. But they only seem to achieve international success if they leave South Africa.

You try any kind of innovation in South Africa and all you get is a million reasons why it won't work.

 

[visrot]

If you like high communication costs, high fuel prices, k@k salaries, high medical costs, etc etc then come to SA. Place has opportunities, is beautiful and the weather is fantastic.
If you like a high quality of living stay in SA
If like a high standard of living, efoff abroad and don't come back.

 

[noxibox]

Also, for top talent, SA really is a massive pay cut - I am already factoring in the cost of living reduction.

That's a myth.