Why does South Africa set such low standards for everything?

[noxibox]

You try any kind of innovation in South Africa and all you get is a million reasons why it won't work.

Another myth.

 

[ToxicBunny]

South Africa has produced a lot of really talented people. But they only seem to achieve international success if they leave South Africa.

You try any kind of innovation in South Africa and all you get is a million reasons why it won't work.

Complete bollocks on both counts.

 

[cguy]

That's a myth.

What are you basing your assertations on? Wishful thinking? I've actually lived in both places for a good amount of time.

Top talent in SA: R1M/year
Top talent in USA (using Bay Area as an example): R3M+/year

The bad:
Food costs: ~2x more expensive in BA
Restaurant costs: ~2x more expensive in BA
Rental/Housing costs: ~2x to 2.5x more expensive in BA (although bond interest and property taxes ("rates") are tax deductible)
Kid's education: ~4-5x more expensive in BA

Still mostly in favour of the Bay Area.

The good:
Car costs: ~0.5x the cost of SA (so 6x more affordable in BA)
Petrol costs: ~0.8x the cost in SA
Electronics/Computers: ~1.5-2x more expensive in SA
Internet: Well... 100Mb/s at home is nice
Company usually covers: Medical, dental, vision, life insurance, retirement account matching

The awesome:
Plane flights cost the same (often cheaper, since it is often easier to travel from the US).
Overseas (or distant) vacations cost the same. Skiing in Taho, spending a week in Hawaii, or flying to London for a long weekend are things people actually do.
Saving significant dough is actually possible as an employee.
Your job tends to be working on some awesome problem at Google, Apple, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Facebook, etc.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Top talent in SA: R1M/year
Top talent in USA (using Bay Area as an example): R3M+/year

Not quite sure where you got your numbers from..

The top talent that I have interacted with in SA is on between R5k and R15k per HOUR.

and alot of the very good talent is on salaries in excess of R200k per month.

 

[ponder]

Not quite sure where you got your numbers from..

The top talent that I have interacted with in SA is on between R5k and R15k per HOUR.

and alot of the very good talent is on salaries in excess of R200k per month.

Yeah some people just don't know...

 

[cguy]

Not quite sure where you got your numbers from..

The top talent that I have interacted with in SA is on between R5k and R15k per HOUR.

and alot of the very good talent is on salaries in excess of R200k per month.

Your company recruited IT guys who potentially earn north of R30m a year, and they were rubbish in general? Sounds like an awesome place to work.

I am referring to approximately the 95th percentile as "top talent", not the 99.5+th percentile. It makes no sense to generalize about what the latter group earns in the USA vs. SA, or whether or not they are willing to take a pay cut to leave the US - the sample set is too small, and people earning multimillion dollar salaries often reach a stage where the pay delta no longer matters to them - but this is once again very atypical due to the rarity of such earners in IT, which was my original point.

 

[Splinter]

Did anyone give the dude a link to a flight agent? If he can't get enough money for a ticket to USA, then I guess he ain't going to be an amazing entrepreneur anywhere?

 

[Splinter]

Not quite sure where you got your numbers from..

The top talent that I have interacted with in SA is on between R5k and R15k per HOUR.

and alot of the very good talent is on salaries in excess of R200k per month.

Ok, your numbers are fooked. R5k an hour is 5k x 8hours x 22day s= R880k per month

15k x 8hours x 22 days = R2.640m per month.

 

[cguy]

Ok, your numbers are fooked. R5k an hour is 5k x 8hours x 22day s= R880k per month

15k x 8hours x 22 days = R2.640m per month.

It's certainly fooked as a basis for generalization, but depending on the criteria, it's not something that is completely otherworldly. Big company CTOs, successful quant developers, senior VPs, or other super niche specialists may earn millions of dollars a year in the US (or millions to tens of millions of rands in SA even). Still, it is rare enough that just saying that it happens doesn't really mean anything. (Similar to the Mark Shuttleworth or Mine Craft "you too can do it" argument - they're just pointing out that the level of success probability curve has a far end).

 

[Necuno]

Why does South Africa set such low standards for everything?

we are at the bottom tip of africa?

 

[Polymathic]

one of the reasons i hate blackberry is that it points out to the world how backward and mediocre our country is

 

[ToxicBunny]

Ok, your numbers are fooked. R5k an hour is 5k x 8hours x 22day s= R880k per month

15k x 8hours x 22 days = R2.640m per month.

Notice I said TOP talent... not your run of the mill salaried employee... these are guys who contract out and are busy 8 - 10 hours a day easily because they are just that damn good.

 

[Splinter]

Notice I said TOP talent... not your run of the mill salaried employee... these are guys who contract out and are busy 8 - 10 hours a day easily because they are just that damn good.

I get that they top talent - but look at what the 4 major banks CEO's earned last year for example. Ok, they get shares as well but R15k an hour seems somewhat high...

 

[ToxicBunny]

I get that they top talent - but look at what the 4 major banks CEO's earned last year for example. Ok, they get shares as well but R15k an hour seems somewhat high...

I know it seems high, trust me... but it does happen..

 

[Lordpiet]

Dont know but lets blame Apartheid like every one always do . . .

 

[captainEO]

I'm really bad at replying >.>

Our biggest successes achieve it elsewhere? Really? are you trying to be dense? Where do you think Thawte was built and based? hmmm?

What do you mean? In the example of Mark Shuttleworth he achieve everything here in SA and made his money here ultimately selling to a US company. After this he moved to the UK and started up Canonical which is not really profitable yet, he's burning his money generated in SA hoping to turn things around over time.

Well, I stand corrected.

But Thawte is just one company and it isn't exactly what you'd call popular. Plus it was a long time ago.

And you'd find that Shuttleworth doesn't even live here anymore and conducts most of his business in the UK/US where they likely make up a greater portion of his consumers.

But when it comes to Elon Musk, he only achieved success overseas. He helped found PayPal in Silicon Valley

And the CEO of StumbleUpon is also another South African who works in Silicon Valley

It's like cguy said: Google, Apple, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Facebook, etc. versus Thawte, ? ? ...

The op's generalization of education seems a bit off.

There are private universities, Monash, which gives international qualifications, but in the last rankings it was just above UCT. It does have benefits and its disadvantages, humanities in South Africa is very theory centric so my experience at Rhodes was of "learn the paradigms" and that's it (specifically Psychology).

Monash expected the theories to be done by 2nd year, and then learning how to practice the took priority, performing tests on ourselves and then learning what they measure and how to score them, incredibly relevant in the career most psychologists follow, research. I've found the difference is where your treated as amazing in S.A by just getting into varsity, other universities seem to follow a "so what" mentality.

But it doesn't mean international study's amazing, the Philosophy courses at Monash are rubbish compared to Rhodes, a friend studying an LLB at UJ was given lectures on jurisprudence by Thad Metz. Its a sad thing that people are taught the institution matters rather than the person you study under. I was lucky enough to work with people consulting on legislation for the U.N and who revolutionized their fields, and I know if I hadn't missed the application dates for Cambridge I'd be jetting off there next year because of the knowledge of how amazing these professors are (and alot of hard work).

The tertiary education in S.A is amazing but you need to pick a field then work towards it, to the point where you may need to go overseas, and from my experience local universities have a lot to temp academics when they're here.

The Monash school you've mentioned isn't really the actual Australian Monash. It's very loosely associated with the main campus, so I don't buy what you're selling me.

But I agree that the professors/teachers are important outside of the institution itself.

What are you basing your assertations on? Wishful thinking? I've actually lived in both places for a good amount of time.

Top talent in SA: R1M/year
Top talent in USA (using Bay Area as an example): R3M+/year

The bad:
Food costs: ~2x more expensive in BA
Restaurant costs: ~2x more expensive in BA
Rental/Housing costs: ~2x to 2.5x more expensive in BA (although bond interest and property taxes ("rates") are tax deductible)
Kid's education: ~4-5x more expensive in BA

Still mostly in favour of the Bay Area.

The good:
Car costs: ~0.5x the cost of SA (so 6x more affordable in BA)
Petrol costs: ~0.8x the cost in SA
Electronics/Computers: ~1.5-2x more expensive in SA
Internet: Well... 100Mb/s at home is nice
Company usually covers: Medical, dental, vision, life insurance, retirement account matching

The awesome:
Plane flights cost the same (often cheaper, since it is often easier to travel from the US).
Overseas (or distant) vacations cost the same. Skiing in Taho, spending a week in Hawaii, or flying to London for a long weekend are things people actually do.
Saving significant dough is actually possible as an employee.
Your job tends to be working on some awesome problem at Google, Apple, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Facebook, etc.

This sounds awesome. And it's why I generally see the US/Bay Area as the final base for my project

But I will stay here for a while longer, at least only to get off the ground, but Silicon Valley is my best bet.

I found out that Waze wasn't solely based in Israel. Their team was split between Israel and Silicon Valley, and I think the CEO resided in the US

 

[cguy]

This sounds awesome. And it's why I generally see the US/Bay Area as the final base for my project

But I will stay here for a while longer, at least only to get off the ground, but Silicon Valley is my best bet.

No man, you should stick around SA and earn R15k per hour, and if Mark Shuttleworth can become super successful, then it stands to reason that you can too.

 

[ToxicBunny]

You are still adamant on this "Bay Area" thing being your saviour...

You are young, maybe you need to be burnt before you realise a few hard truths in life, but the Bay Area will chew you up, spit you out, piss on your idea and leave you penniless.

 

[Gibson]

The Monash school you've mentioned isn't really the actual Australian Monash. It's very loosely associated with the main campus, so I don't buy what you're selling me.

But I agree that the professors/teachers are important outside of the institution itself.

Rubbish, a lot of work has to be submitted to the Australian campus for moderation and all exam results are sent there to be standardized (in fact there's the opposite problem where some South African and Malaysian faculties are bringing down the aggregate).

Also the majority of courses are specifically tailored to Australia (the psy course isn't recognized in South Africa) with lecturers and HOD's sent out from the main campus.

And on a side note, the degree doesn't state a loose affiliation, it has the university seal, the signatures of the appropriate Australian chancellors and is even presented by them.

 

[captainEO]

No man, you should stick around SA and earn R15k per hour, and if Mark Shuttleworth can become super successful, then it stands to reason that you can too.

Lol

You are still adamant on this "Bay Area" thing being your saviour...

You are young, maybe you need to be burnt before you realise a few hard truths in life, but the Bay Area will chew you up, spit you out, piss on your idea and leave you penniless.

Haha, I guess time will tell. But I have faith in myself, so I won't let anyone shake me.

I know I can do this.

Besides, I didn't listen to other people's advice, which is why I've decided to stay here for some time or establish multiple bases. Something I'd have never done before.

Rubbish, a lot of work has to be submitted to the Australian campus for moderation and all exam results are sent there to be standardized (in fact there's the opposite problem where some South African and Malaysian faculties are bringing down the aggregate).

Also the majority of courses are specifically tailored to Australia (the psy course isn't recognized in South Africa) with lecturers and HOD's sent out from the main campus.

And on a side note, the degree doesn't state a loose affiliation, it has the university seal, the signatures of the appropriate Australian chancellors and is even presented by them.

That's greater involvement than I had thought, but I don't know if it's completely authentic.