Why not IDSL?

LiquidGhost

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Jun 19, 2004
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Hey,
I have been wondering: Why doesn't Telkom implement IDSL?

We have the infrastructure and all..so there are no really high costs to implement this. You can market it as "low speed" DSL (144kbit/s) and price it the same as 128k Sentech or something.

Telkom not doing this because it will cut in on their ISDN market?
 

MaD

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Welcome to MyADSL, LiquidGhost
It's a good idea, altho the prob is it'll most likely still be too expensive being Telkom.. their justifications are normally
a) the investment in SAT-3; the investors need (sorry, *want*) a big return on investment
b) bandwidth costs from overseas which is in actual fact 1/12th of what Telkom charges wholesale for

But soon they will have to start offering other ADSL packages.. as far as I've gathered in my months of reading everything on this and other sites, the speed isn't the main issue, it's the cap. So most ppl will most likely b happy with a 256/128 or even a 128/64 package, but the 3GB's really is the main stick in the spokes at the mo. (is it stick in the spokes?? stok in die speueke... hhmmmm)
I think in order of importance the issues are:
- the cap
- the speed
- the dynamic IP
- the port prioritization
The advantages of being permanently connected dampen them a bit...
But lesser ADSL packages would be bought like it's going out of fashion if the price was right..

Personally I'd be hapy with a barebones (no e-mail, web space) 256/128 with a 10GB cap, with no port prioritization for around R450/month incl isp fees..

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - http://telkomsucks.0catch.com</font id="size1"></font id="navy">
 

LiquidGhost

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MMmm true. Anything better than 64k will rock for me. :p Especially when you share it with 4 people...that sucks a lot.

Anyways, I would would also be happy with a 256/128 and 10GB cap.
 

MaD

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What would also be bloody great is if they offer the option of just local access for much less.. that would be *perfect* for many people, espeically those just checking e-mail locally

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - http://telkomsucks.0catch.com</font id="size1"></font id="navy">
 

reech

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thing is it would probably cost the same to implement as the std 512/256 solution, and would earn less in the long run for telkom - generally this type of solution only makes an appearance in mature DSL/broadband markets where most of the exchanges have been upgraded already
 

mbs

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Hey MAD - nothing wrong with a direct translation, especially if it conveys the real sense of that being said (the most priceless of which is 'don't be a farthole man'- hehe) - for interest, I think the right expression is 'spanner in the works'...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(is it stick in the spokes?? stok in die speueke... hhmmmm)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
 

podo

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I would not go for a low speed offering. I don't really mind the cap since I use conservatively and have never been capped, but when I do use the connection to download, it's speed I'm after. Usually, I download updates for my UNIX boxes and drivers for when I fix a PC for a mate or an old client back from when I did support. In such cases, waiting for a 64kbps or 128kbps connection to get the data in just won't do.

IDSL would be a bigger hassle though, as Telkom would probably need to install more DSLAM equipment, which means they'll probably overcharge for it aswell, to a point where it's not feasible.

However, what might work very nicely is a 128/64kbps solution at the same ISP price (R250 per month, ish) as the 512/256kbps solution, but with no cap, for those people who don't really care that much about the speed, but insist on downloading a zillion gigabytes per month.

Willie Viljoen
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Adaptive Web Development
 

MaD

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Would be nice if ppl like all of us on the forums were consulted and asked for input for new services or packages. Transparency is important when running a company that rakes in 4 billion profit, this way they can only make more money - by asking us what we need and then doing it.

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - http://telkomsucks.0catch.com</font id="size1"></font id="navy">
 

LiquidGhost

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Uh, why more DSLAMS? IDSL runs over the ISDN infrastructure. Basically it is "always on ISDN".

They (other countries ) implemented this in areas where ADSL was not implented.
 

MaD

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Over ISDN?? Sheesh, Telkom's invested way more in ISDN than ADSL... perhaps they should take a look at IDSL.. so does one just need a IDSL modem for it to work over the current network?


<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - http://telkomsucks.0catch.com</font id="size1"></font id="navy">
 

podo

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Ah,

Sorry for the confusion, the technology I had in mind was actually ADSL over ISDN (which is actually "ADSL with ISDN") where the operators install a special DSLAM which allows you to use ADSL on an ISDN upgraded line. You'll find a lot of these in Germany where many people bought IDSN before ADSL became available and now want to use ADSL, but do not want to get rid of their ISDN line since it has other benifits besides slightly faster internet access.

Technically, this would not really qualify as xDSL though, just as a 128kbps ISDN basic rate leased line. These are quite common overseas and are used by businesses and home users that want only very basic permanent internet access. Remember, in the first world, people who would buy a 64kbps Diginet line here would be using one or more T1s to connect their business to the internet, so an ISDN basic rate leased line would be considered very very basic permanent access.

I doubt Telkom would go for ISDN basic rate leased lines though, since ISDN is not xDSL, but an end to end digital service with terminals and terminating units, permanent ISDN would be a direct competitor to Diginet and everybody would probably move immediately. Remember that Telkom make a lot of money from Diginet and they would not easily do anything that could unsettle Diginet.

Also, only being available as a dial-up service, ISDN is proving to be a great money-maker for Telkom. The monthly rates for basic rate ISDN dial-up lines are high and people usually spend hours downloading, meaning expensive phone calls that feed the money hungry share holders.

At the moment, ADSL is priced to only be used by a niche market, with many limitations like the 3GB cap, due in part to infrastructure limitations and in part to Telkom not wanting businesses to move from the more reliable, but much more expensive Diginet lines.

Diginet and ISDN are priced so that they target two separate markets. The small business that wants reliable internet access, who will buy a Diginet line and the home or small office user who just wants slightly better speed from his dial-up, who will buy ISDN. Thus, Diginet and ISDN are complimenting each other instead of competing with each other and are thus earning handsome profits for Telkom.

Starting to offer ISDN basic rate leased lines would not make sence, unless they were to price them at exactly the same rates at which Diginet is currently priced. Having two services with identical capabilities at the same price would be stupid, even by Telkom's standards.

Getting back to the point of it this kind of connection not being xDSL, I've seen some funny descriptions of a few kinds of permanent connections which have left even me quite confused.

For some reason, it has become fassionable to append the letters DSL to any kind of permanent connection that's in any way faster than dial-up.

My favorite of all time is CDSL, which does not exist, but is referred to by many users. This non-existant acronym supposedly stands for "Cable DSL", meaning permanent broadband over cable TV networks.

That's totally inaccurate, since cable internet works in a completely different way. Cable internet is an "ethernet over point to multipoint broadcast fiber network" connection. It's actually a very bad connection, since a packet for any user in an area must propagate to all users in that area, like ethernet did before somebody invented the switch.

WDSL is another wonderful concontion that I have come across, even mentioned once in this forum. This supposedly stands for "Wireless DSL", meaning a fast, permanent wireless connection. Wireless internet, in any form, be it 802.11 or 802.16 based, GPRS or UTMS TDD (3G) based, is just wireless internet.

One lesser known of these mythical connections is PDSL, or "Power Line DSL", this also does not exist. Power line internet is very real in countries like Germany and Japan, but it uses modulation over power cables and is very definitely not DSL.

For something to qualify is being any kind of DSL, it must actually be DSL. DSL technology is quite simple. It works by splitting an analogue phone line into two bands. Normally analogue voice telephones and voice band modems use only the audible frequencies of sound waves where the human voice would naturally occur. These devices will generally only transmit and receive between 300Hz and 3KHz.

However, analogue phone circuits are not limited in terms of the frequencies of sound waves they can carry. In fact, you could send frequencies into many GHz, way beyond the hearing capability of a human, through any analogue audio device, if your device and your cabling was of sufficient quality.

Generally, phone lines close to the exchange can carry frequencies at least up to 1MHz, although they start to distort badly at very high frequencies. Still, from the 3KHz which is the absolute maximum that voice traffic could ever use, there is a large block of totally unused frequency bandwidth on every phone line, ranging up to 1MHz.

ADSL modems use DMT (Discreet Multi-Tone) modulation, which operates between 20KHz and 1MHz and allows for 256 channels, affording it tremendous bandwidth over standard analogue copper lines.

Splitters and filters are used to filter off the high frequencies, above 3KHz, from the voice devices, so that the voice devices do not pick up noise from the ADSL device operating at the high frequency band on the same line. The DSLAM (DSL Access Multiplexer) unit, filters off frequencies below 20KHz, so that voice traffic can not cause disruptions to the digital traffic.

In the frequency band between 20KHz and 1MHz, the ADSL modem's DMT modulation creates 256 distinct tones which act as channels and offer a maximum possible bandwidth of about 640KBps downstream and about 6.4MBps upstream. This is achieved by modulating digital data into the 256 tone channels, which offer a massive margin for error, so that the distortion generally holding back digital over analogue transmissions does not become a problem.

Other technologies that use similar means of transmission, in other words, using very high frequencies on standard analogue copper wire, are HDSL (High Speed Digital Subscriber Line), SDSL (Synchronous Digital Subscriber Line),VDSL (Very High Speed Digital Subscriber Line) and UDSL, a new DSL technology that can carry up to 200MBps of bandwidth over short distances over standard analogue copper wire.

The other technologies mentioned here use very different ways to transfer data over the line. In all cases, there is no analogue modulation what so ever involved.

Cable internet uses point-to-multipoint packet based networking. Wireless internet uses packet based networking over radio frequencies and power line internet uses harmonics to influence the modulation of the electric alternating current.

None of these can be DSL since they do not use analogue copper wire and do not use sound modulation. Yet, they are still referred to as DSL for some reason, since they are all permanent and fast. It would appear that the three letters DSL, have become synonymous with cheap, fast, permanent internet connections and as such, have become the publically known name for any kind of broadband permanent internet.

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development
 

Jerrek

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Jul 26, 2003
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Must be a local thing. I have never heard anyone ever use CDSL or cable dsl. We call it "cable." We also call our DSL just that: DSL. We don't use the "A" in "ADSL."
 

podo

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Jerrek,

I've only heard "CSDL" from South African users. Since "cable" isn't really a part of every day life here, very few of the local users are aware of how it works. Currently, the only very well known form of broadband here is ADSL, which would be called just DSL there since ADSL is the most widely used and commonly implemented form of DSL.

Here, anything even remotely broadband seems to be considered DSL, even though something can only be DSL if it is high frequency sound modulation over analogue copper, as I pointed out above. Yet, in South Africa, everything that is a permanent connection and offers more than 64kbps of bandwidth has to be called (something)DSL.

I have even come across one user who thought SDSL, which is Syncrhonous DSL, is "Satellite DSL", worse yet, I once saw a post on this very forum where somebody referred the readers to a web page offering what they called "satellite DSL", the web page of course offered bidirectional satellite broadband internet access, which is definitely not DSL.

Another thread on the forum was talking about Sentech's launch of a national "W-DSL" infrastructure, WDSL actually being UTMS packet radio based internet, but, because it's supposedly fast and supposedly permanent, the South African users have to call it wireless DSL.

Also, if it might interest anybody, some of my clients have had very interesting ways of referring to their ADSL lines. The most common is ASDL, probably because they have become so used to saying ISDN and are getting the letters reversed. Once I even heard somebody say they have an ASDN line, which turned out to be ADSL, but was being confused with ISDN.

It seems that awareness of how these technologies work and the difference between them is very limited in South Africa. Perhaps. if they must be linked by a common thread, they could be called (something) broadband, like everywhere else.

For instance, DSL broadband, broadband cable, satellite broadband and wireless broadband would be a perfectly accurate description of a fast internet connection powered by each of these carriers, but the DSL moniker only applies to one specific technology, not all forms of broadband.

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development
 

freeek

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hmmm IDSL, 128 down / 64 up will be great, At about R350 line rental, R250 ISP = R600 a month
decent download speeds @ +-16k, great pings(better than ADSL since its on ISDN)
aaah that would just rock!

come Telkom, I know you reading this forum, hmmmm come SNO!! make us proud

..- dot dot dash ;)
 

MaD

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128/64 at R600 - twice as expensive as what I'd expect to be a decent price tho...

Ja, when I came back to SA i called it DSL as well cos that's how I grew to know it overseas... mefinks everyone 'cept us SAfricans calls it DSL :)

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za</font id="size1"></font id="navy">
 

Karnaugh

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IMHO this is silly, all telkom need to do is actualy offer us ADSL at an affordable rate for the home.

DSTV is an example of an affordable product aimed for the home... ADSL shouldnt cost more than it.

- Colin Alston
colin at alston dot za dot org

"Getting traffic shaping right is easy and can be summed up in one word: Dont." -- George Barnett
 

MaD

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You mentioned 'Telkom' and 'affordable' in the same sentence.
Just thought I'd point out that error :p

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za</font id="size1"></font id="navy">
 
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