Why shutting down SAA could destroy South Africa: Ramaphosa

[KleinBoontjie]

See the updated article. Ramaphosa admitted that it could not be closed. Debtors will claim all debt back and this will collapse the government and economy. It will keep running on tax payers money indefinitely.

The economy isn't in a state of collapsed, yet?

 

[Jola]

Very strange.... the past 2 years we flew to London & New York on a number of occasions and then onwards to Panama, yet, on the 7 times we made bookings, SAA was constantly one of the top 3 most expensive airlines.

I have to agree with this, over the last few years when I was planning trips SAA was always amongst the most expensive, usually by about 30%, or even more.

Why pay so much extra for mediocre service ?

So I used BA, Emirates and Cathay Pacific instead.

Examples :

1) Oct 2017 to Sydney, SAA R22k, Cathay Pacific R13.5k

2) May 2016 to Tampa (USA), SAA R22k, BA R13.5k

 

[Visser]

The economy isn't in a state of collapsed, yet?

Yep, it is.

Just imagine is all SOE's debt suddenly becomes payable in 24 hours. This is exactly what will happen when the SAA is sold, privatized, sold off partially or even liquidated. There are agreements in place where lenders can call up and make all debt payable of all 6 SOE's even if only 1 of them are going this route. Hence the reason CR said it will not be closed.

 

[Visser]

I have to agree with this, over the last few years when I was planning trips SAA was always amongst the most expensive, usually by about 30%, or even more.

Why pay so much extra for mediocre service ?

So I used BA, Emirates and Cathay Pacific instead.

Agreed. The past 1-2 years I only flew Emirates, KLM, Qatar, Etihad, Turkish and BA. On my trips they offered the cheapest flights at the time and SAA did not even figure close to them in terms of pricing. That being said, this meant longer flight hours and longer layovers, but even with this, it helped me to save at least R10k-R30k per flight when compared to SAA prices.

And, let me be honest about another thing. I will never fly SAA, even if they miraculously comes with the best special ever. I do not trust the airline and their pilots.

 

[N@t3]

Why shutting down SAA could destroy South Africa: Ramaphosa

President Cyril Ramaphosa has explained why it is important to keep SAA open.

You mean it will destroy the pockets of the thieves, there fixed.

 

[Visser]

You mean it will destroy the pockets of the thieves, there fixed.

Definitely their pockets but most definitely the economy too.

What you need to realize, whenever any SOE borrows money from somewhere, there is a cross-clause in that agreement to protect the lender. What the cross-clause does, it protects the lender should the SOE fail or default on debt. If a lender borrowed money to more than one SOE, this lender may call up the debt borrowed to all SOE's. If one does this, all other lenders will immediately jump in and this could cause that all debt from all SOEs, which amounts to Trillions, may become payable immediately.

So, it is in the interest of the government to make use of tax payers money to keep these organizations afloat.

 

[Ockie]

I have to agree with this, over the last few years when I was planning trips SAA was always amongst the most expensive, usually by about 30%, or even more.

Why pay so much extra for mediocre service ?

So I used BA, Emirates and Cathay Pacific instead.

Examples :

1) Oct 2017 to Sydney, SAA R22k, Cathay Pacific R13.5k

2) May 2016 to Tampa (USA), SAA R22k, BA R13.5k

I am not disagreeing with you, but in your comparison's it must be remembered that BA and Cathay has got a massive hub model. BA uses London as their hub and Cathay uses Hong Kong. Same with Ethiopian Airlines and why I think they are doing so well. Well, not the only reason, but part of it. Addis is located in a great location to serve as a hub for a airline. SAA a few years ago were considering opening a hub in West Africa which would make South African destinations a spoke in the hub and spoke model. So thunnel people from Cape Town and Joburg and perhaps now even Durbs through to lets say, Accra and from there you get your connecting flight to London, Frankfurt, New York etc etc. But those plans never came to be.

 

[Jola]

I am not disagreeing with you, but in your comparison's it must be remembered that BA and Cathay has got a massive hub model. BA uses London as their hub and Cathay uses Hong Kong. Same with Ethiopian Airlines and why I think they are doing so well. Well, not the only reason, but part of it. Addis is located in a great location to serve as a hub for a airline. SAA a few years ago were considering opening a hub in West Africa which would make South African destinations a spoke in the hub and spoke model. So thunnel people from Cape Town and Joburg and perhaps now even Durbs through to lets say, Accra and from there you get your connecting flight to London, Frankfurt, New York etc etc. But those plans never came to be.

I hear what you say, but in the Australia case SAA had direct flights, which would always be more efficient.

IMO SAA has always tried to do a bit of price gouging, but it just didn't work, too much competition, and they lost traffic.

SAA messing up the London routes when everyone else was making money out of that is a prime example of their incompetence. And just imagine giving up LHR slots, how stupid can you be ?

 

[Ockie]

I hear what you say, but in the Australia case SAA had direct flights, which would always be more efficient.

IMO SAA has always tried to do a bit of price gouging, but it just didn't work, too much competition, and they lost traffic.

SAA messing up the London routes when everyone else was making money out of that is a prime example of their incompetence. And just imagine giving up LHR slots, how stupid can you be ?

I agree with you.

 

[Jola]

I agree with you.

BTW, when I say "always did price gouging", this really refers to more recent times, essentially post approx 2000.

I can remember that they were fairly competitive in the 90's, and I did sometimes fly SAA at that time, especially to London.

The major screw-ups have really been in ANC times.

Coincidence ? I think not.

 

[ToxicBunny]

They can claim to rule America. Doesn't change the facts.

I'm not changing any facts...

Merely presenting to you that Telkom is still classed as an SOE, albeit only a partial one really.

 

[Emjay]

South Africa would be better to take the economic hit of accepting reality and defaulting on the debt. That is what would happen if this were a business or an individual.

We would need austerity measures for a few years, but then we would be free of the monster. Instead they are simply tossing good money after bad.

Cyril has been handed the biggest hospital passes in the history of South Africa. These issues have been slowly gaining size (i.e. debt) over the last 25 years. I am willing to bet the strategy is to just keep the status quo so they don't have to deal with this fallout politically quite yet. In the next 5 years, we are going to have to face up to reality at some point.

 

[Swa]

See the updated article. Ramaphosa admitted that it could not be closed. Debtors will claim all debt back and this will collapse the government and economy. It will keep running on tax payers money indefinitely.

Costing more in the long run.

I'm not changing any facts...

Merely presenting to you that Telkom is still classed as an SOE, albeit only a partial one really.

Except it's not. Get your facts correct.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Costing more in the long run.


Except it's not. Get your facts correct.

My facts are correct, yours aren't....

 

[Swa]

My facts are correct, yours aren't....

No yours are incorrect. You can check on the JSE. Try buying some shares.

 

[ToxicBunny]

No yours are incorrect. You can check on the JSE. Try buying some shares.

Do you not understand the statement of partially?

 

[Swa]

Do you not understand the statement of partially?

You don't seem to get the fact it either is or isn't.

 

[Idiosyncratic]

I do not trust the airline and their pilots.

Based on?
SAA training is considered to be some of the best in the world by the industry. They stay very nicely up to date with the latest Airbus and Boeing (for cargo) training syllabus (unlike many other SA operators). FlySafair, for example, even uses the SAA stuff in verbatim with their training captains being mostly former SAA stock.
Comair doesn't but their training program isn't nearly as well regarded.
SAAT has also been maintaining the vast majority of Part 121 operators' aircraft in South Africa.

Are you going to stop flying domestically within SA? ...because if you don't trust SAA's pilots or aircraft, then you most certainly can't trust any airline in South Africa.

 

[Visser]

Are you going to stop flying domestically within SA? ...because if you don't trust SAA's pilots or aircraft, then you most certainly can't trust any airline in South Africa.

The last flight on SAA for me was in March 1997. Since then I have only flown BA Comair and of late only Kulula. Now, I do not fly a lot locally, probably only around 30 flights a year. But, I have no interest flying SAA and probably never will. I have my reasons and they are my own.

 

[Idiosyncratic]

The last flight on SAA for me was in March 1997. Since then I have only flown BA Comair and of late only Kulula. Now, I do not fly a lot locally, probably only around 30 flights a year. But, I have no interest flying SAA and probably never will. I have my reasons and they are my own.

You are entitled to your own reasons... but I questioned the basis of your statement about not trusting the airline or its pilots. If you don't trust their pilots, then you most certainly shouldn't board any BA Intl, Emirates or Cathay flight as they have taken dozens of SAA's pilots in recent weeks as their training programs and standards are very similar.

BA Comair and Kulula is the same operator, and while it's not my place to say that the quality of their training is lower than SAA, their pilots most certainly battle during sim checks where they are forced to use standard Boeing SOPs.