Why this one financial trend in South Africa is so terrifying

maumau

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Summary of that is basically more not saving for retirement vs before, which is a given in a down turn. Issue is a heck of a lot of people can't even pay basic bills, how are they supposed to worry about retirement?

Plus rate of inflation, you can save as much as you like it'll be worth very little if you retire in 10+ years.
 

genetic

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Summary of that is basically more not saving for retirement vs before, which is a given in a down turn. Issue is a heck of a lot of people can't even pay basic bills, how are they supposed to worry about retirement?

It's not endemic to SA. It's a global issue;

 

Johnatan56

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genetic

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US the issue is that the 401k system is broken, the previous pension system was way better, but that's a whole other discussion.

Agreed, but point being that everything is getting expensive globally. 40 years ago, everyone was buying a house in their 20's. Nowadays, you'd be lucky if someone in their 30's can afford to buy a small apartment.

It's because we have to spend so much money on things that previous generations never had - we have access to everything... internet, TV, technology, computers, software, video on demand, consoles, gadgets, phones, apps, modern transport, advanced healthcare, insurance, policies, education... everything is convenient and takes our money on a monthly basis. And what we subscribe to is all disposable. It continuously needs to be updated or replaced. Everything these days has a cost and an expiry date associated to it. Typewriters lasted decades. A laptop maybe a few years at best.

We live in a complex expensive world that never existed in the boomer generation - so their money and expenditure was more focused on the core function of their future. Modern society dictates that the future is "now", so you need to keep up with the now. In the 1980's your telephone lasted you 20 years. Now it gets replaced every 2 years on average. There is a financial drain on modern comfortable living.
 

RedViking

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Agreed, but point being that everything is getting expensive globally. 40 years ago, everyone was buying a house in their 20's. Nowadays, you'd be lucky if someone in their 30's can afford to buy a small apartment.

It's because we have to spend so much money on things that previous generations never had - we have access to everything... internet, TV, technology, computers, software, video on demand, consoles, gadgets, phones, apps, modern transport, advanced healthcare, insurance, policies, education... everything is convenient and takes our money on a monthly basis. And what we subscribe to is all disposable. It continuously needs to be updated or replaced. Everything these days has a cost and an expiry date associated to it. Typewriters lasted decades. A laptop maybe a few years at best.

We live in a complex expensive world that never existed in the boomer generation - so their money and expenditure was more focused on the core function of their future. Modern society dictates that the future is "now", so you need to keep up with the now. In the 1980's your telephone lasted you 20 years. Now it gets replaced every 2 years on average. There is a financial drain on modern comfortable living.
And now add in the pandemic and the damage of government forced lockdowns, people have to give up their homes and sell what they previously had, including giving up the luxuries. Fun!
 

genetic

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And now add in the pandemic and the damage of government forced lockdowns, people have to give up their homes and sell what they previously had, including giving up the luxuries. Fun!
Exactly. Throw in inept governments and forced economic lockdowns, and we have the making of a modern global 'great depression'.
 

Arthur

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The root cause of savings value loss is governments arrogating to themselves the pretend-power to create money ex nihilo. It's iniquitous. For most of us the consequences will be calamitous, as certainly as night follows day.
 

RedViking

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Rossouw added that the concerns were amplified when it came to women: “Yet again, women’s knowledge of their retirement savings needs and failure to implement the best possible solutions reveals a dire situation.”

The RRR21 noted that women “need more but have less”. They need more because they live longer on average, and have less for a number of reasons, including that they often earn less than men and they tend to save less. According to the RRR21, 54% of women say they don’t have a retirement savings plan, compared with 46% of men.

Women have it much worse than men.
 

Johnatan56

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Agreed, but point being that everything is getting expensive globally. 40 years ago, everyone was buying a house in their 20's. Nowadays, you'd be lucky if someone in their 30's can afford to buy a small apartment.

It's because we have to spend so much money on things that previous generations never had - we have access to everything... internet, TV, technology, computers, software, video on demand, consoles, gadgets, phones, apps, modern transport, advanced healthcare, insurance, policies, education... everything is convenient and takes our money on a monthly basis. And what we subscribe to is all disposable. It continuously needs to be updated or replaced. Everything these days has a cost and an expiry date associated to it. Typewriters lasted decades. A laptop maybe a few years at best.

We live in a complex expensive world that never existed in the boomer generation - so their money and expenditure was more focused on the core function of their future. Modern society dictates that the future is "now", so you need to keep up with the now. In the 1980's your telephone lasted you 20 years. Now it gets replaced every 2 years on average. There is a financial drain on modern comfortable living.
Agree and disagree, big issue is that many more job with higher skills, so causes an imbalance between have and have nots, as long as min gets enough all is good, but it hasn't happened, rather more jobs that require skills were created but that only works as long as boom.

You also have women join the work force, so two people earning income instead of one, so easier to afford capital for a house, over time housing prices caught up to two people earning, now you are basically forced to work.

That article that you linked has weird comments like:
"And because we have a progressive tax system, which means you tax people at the top more than people in the middle and the bottom, then basically we have really generous subsidies for saving for retirement for rich people. But nothing at all really for people, especially the bottom half of the income distribution, to pay almost no income tax. And so really, it's the people at the bottom that are most urgently in need of help saving. And it's the people at the top who get the benefit of all the policies that currently exist.”
That's a weird one, since income tax is quite a bit lower in lower brackets, that means you shouldn't "need" the benefits, your effective tax rate should be lower either way.

And extending on 401k, you have issues like 1-3% fees in a country where interest rates aren't that high, you don't have options like real estate, then all the rules that the employer can use when they lay you off: https://www.cpajournal.com/2020/06/23/401k-plan-issues-in-the-current-environment/ etc.

Tbh the missing middle is what I am worried about the most, people living previous style but 401k even though correctly done will not be enough due to fees, unforseen circumstances etc. as all based on when you take the money out, all the people that went into pension with covid and cashed out during beginning of pandemic for example.

The other thing, is that at the lower end of the spectrum, I would not use 401k as can't move money around etc., and doubt most of them would be using it. Would be a bad idea due to fees.
Same as South Africa pension tbh, personally don't think it's good for anything below 20%.
 
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netstrider

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I started saving towards retirement in my early 20s. Have had some spells when I've had to put that on hold.

Time is your friend.
 

SauRoNZA

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It's because we have to spend so much money on things that previous generations never had - we have access to everything... internet, TV, technology, computers, software, video on demand, consoles, gadgets, phones, apps, modern transport, advanced healthcare, insurance, policies, education... everything is convenient and takes our money on a monthly basis. And what we subscribe to is all disposable. It continuously needs to be updated or replaced. Everything these days has a cost and an expiry date associated to it. Typewriters lasted decades. A laptop maybe a few years at best.

We live in a complex expensive world that never existed in the boomer generation - so their money and expenditure was more focused on the core function of their future. Modern society dictates that the future is "now", so you need to keep up with the now. In the 1980's your telephone lasted you 20 years. Now it gets replaced every 2 years on average. There is a financial drain on modern comfortable living.

That’s the problem right there.

People don’t have to spend money on any of those things, but they’ve convinced themselves these are necessities and almost basic human rights and that’s why we have these problems.

People starting their first jobs and throwing a 1/4 of their salaries away at a new top of the range phone they don’t need.

And then the replace that every two years and remain a perpetual cost for something they didn’t need in the first place that doesn’t actually need updating or replacing.
 

backstreetboy

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That’s the problem right there.

People don’t have to spend money on any of those things, but they’ve convinced themselves these are necessities and almost basic human rights and that’s why we have these problems.

People starting their first jobs and throwing a 1/4 of their salaries away at a new top of the range phone they don’t need.

And then the replace that every two years and remain a perpetual cost for something they didn’t need in the first place that doesn’t actually need updating or replacing.
It's the only way to get that iPhone.
 

Corelli

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Well its honestly a joke. They should well eliminate the old age pension.

So many in the area I live in, believe that SASSA is a pension and not a wellfare fund. So we can live like kings, and blow our money on well so much stuff, like fancy cars, parties etc. and when they get old, they will just claim their SASSA pensions. But then they complain why is it only R1800 and not R7500 each. R1800 isnt enough to live from, if you have to pay rates (which are discounted for the elderly) etc.

WTF UP. It's a wellfare fund for the poor and needy, not a damn pension fund.

SO SAVE UP MONEY OR STARVE.

There I had to get it out of my system. People dont save, because well there are SASSA.

My one neighbour on sassa, her rent for a house 10k per month, sassa for her and hubby is R3600 pm, her kids have to contribute that she can afford to stay in the house. Because when she was younger she liked to party and the husband liked to gamble. But no fear, SASSA should be more. R7500 each will be great.

Who cares that taxes will just have to be raised, most elderly dont pay tax.
 

Corelli

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That’s the problem right there.

People don’t have to spend money on any of those things, but they’ve convinced themselves these are necessities and almost basic human rights and that’s why we have these problems.

People starting their first jobs and throwing a 1/4 of their salaries away at a new top of the range phone they don’t need.

And then the replace that every two years and remain a perpetual cost for something they didn’t need in the first place that doesn’t actually need updating or replacing.
I bought mine cash. Had it for 6 years now. Still works great and is on well one of the latest Android versions.

But I just use social media bundle and wifi. Saves me buckets.

My colleague spends R1800pm on his iphone (including calls). That money saved can be worth a lot.

Now lets do maths. If he invested it at say a reasonable investment fund, the R1800pm and use say whatsapp calling instead. He would after 6 years with interest be sitting on a pot of R183559. Yip a nifty deposit on your a house.

Now lets add together his new golf gti, yip interest over the period is R250 000.

So thats about R430k he would save if he kept his old car, and bought a phone cash.

Now if he had just banked R430k, he could get R2500 extra per month in interest.

Now if he saved all of that in an retirement fund, those payments, by the time he retired he could have about R20 million rand in retirement fund.

His monthly pension easily R80k per month.

So think again when you want to buy a fancy car, because the rich mostly dont, at least not those that worked hard to get it. They drive cheap cars thats paid off, use cheap cellphones and invest invest invest.

Just my value in PPC investments went up 8x this year. Andthats not even what I have in Bitcoin, Dogecoin, Shibu Inu coins.
 

SauRoNZA

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I bought mine cash. Had it for 6 years now. Still works great and is on well one of the latest Android versions.

But I just use social media bundle and wifi. Saves me buckets.

My colleague spends R1800pm on his iphone (including calls). That money saved can be worth a lot.

Now lets do maths. If he invested it at say a reasonable investment fund, the R1800pm and use say whatsapp calling instead. He would after 6 years with interest be sitting on a pot of R183559. Yip a nifty deposit on your a house.

Now lets add together his new golf gti, yip interest over the period is R250 000.

So thats about R430k he would save if he kept his old car, and bought a phone cash.

Now if he had just banked R430k, he could get R2500 extra per month in interest.

Now if he saved all of that in an retirement fund, those payments, by the time he retired he could have about R20 million rand in retirement fund.

His monthly pension easily R80k per month.

So think again when you want to buy a fancy car, because the rich mostly dont, at least not those that worked hard to get it. They drive cheap cars thats paid off, use cheap cellphones and invest invest invest.

Just my value in PPC investments went up 8x this year. Andthats not even what I have in Bitcoin, Dogecoin, Shibu Inu coins.

Rich = People who are rolling in debt so it looks like they have money living from pay check to pay cheque.

Wealthy = People who live within their means and are working for fun because their passive income pays for everything.
 

cguy

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That's a weird one, since income tax is quite a bit lower in lower brackets, that means you shouldn't "need" the benefits, your effective tax rate should be lower either way.
Yeah, also with reasonably low (for wealthy people) 401k contribution limit, the tax saving on that small amount hardly even registers as a blip on their effective tax rate.

And extending on 401k, you have issues like 1-3% fees in a country where interest rates aren't that high, you don't have options like real estate, then all the rules that the employer can use when they lay you off: https://www.cpajournal.com/2020/06/23/401k-plan-issues-in-the-current-environment/ etc.

Tbh the missing middle is what I am worried about the most, people living previous style but 401k even though correctly done will not be enough due to fees, unforseen circumstances etc. as all based on when you take the money out, all the people that went into pension with covid and cashed out during beginning of pandemic for example.

The other thing, is that at the lower end of the spectrum, I would not use 401k as can't move money around etc., and doubt most of them would be using it. Would be a bad idea due to fees.
Same as South Africa pension tbh, personally don't think it's good for anything below 20%.
I’ve been happy with my 401k so far - around $900k after 12 or so years of contributions into the most basic Vanguard products, and our company matches at 50%, so pretty much everyone from the receptionists and up have been doing this.
 
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