Why you don't really have free will

Prawnapple

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That rabbit hole is a waste of time and not germane to my point.
Haha I knew it. You're still a major proponent of dualism or whatever you want to call it. Where concepts like "soul" and "consciousness" exist independently of matter and body and you still have 0 evidence to show for it.
 

rietrot

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Okay well it's comforting knowing you're not a proponent of libertarian free will. I.e. a view incompatible with causal determinism.
I am. You just don't understand what libertarian free will is.

And there's no such thing as determanism. It is a backwards mid-evil superstition. Somebody like Sam Harris probably told you you have to be that, but you don't.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Haha I knew it. You're still a major proponent of dualism or whatever you want to call it. Where concepts like "soul" and "consciousness" exist independently of matter and body and you still have 0 evidence to show for it.
Do you even know what conversation you are in? I don't think so... :cautious:

None of these red-herrings detract from the fact that you've effectively declared choice to be an illusion.
 

rietrot

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That's not what he's saying. He's saying that external factors control the decision you'll make.
But does it? How hard you perceived the choice to be doesn't make it technically impossible.

Then trends and stuff are hard to break. Ninjad really nailed it with Memes are the DNA of the soul.

Apart from things that are really impossible due to the nature of reality.
 

Prawnapple

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I am. You just don't understand what libertarian free will is.

And there's no such thing as determanism. It is a backwards mid-evil superstition. Somebody like Sam Harris probably told you you have to be that, but you don't.
Determinism, indeterminism, whatever you want to call it, still doesn't get one to libertarian free will. I do indeed understand what it means.

Do you even know what conversation you are in? I don't think so... :cautious:

None of these red-herrings detract from the fact that you've effectively declared choice to be an illusion.
Doesn't matter if choice is an illusion.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Doesn't matter if choice is an illusion.
It only matters insofar as it refutes your answers to the questions rietrot posed to you:

Yes

Yes

It's my physical being, guided by a process of cause and effect. It's really simple to be honest.
If you think it doesn't matter that you incorrectly describe your own viewpoints, well, I guess that explains a lot...
 

Prawnapple

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It only matters insofar as it refutes your answers to the questions rietrot posed to you:



If you think it doesn't matter that you incorrectly describe your own viewpoints, well, I guess that explains a lot...
That's why definitions need to be defined beforehand and agreed upon, obviously. Otherwise, it causes a mess and people speak past each other.
 

Gingerbeardman

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That's why definitions need to be defined beforehand and agreed upon, obviously. Otherwise, it causes a mess and people speak past each other.
Yeah, but the definition of consciousness has nothing to do with the contradiction in your PoV.

So by all means, feel free to explain how you believe you can decide things while at the same time believing that choice is an illusion.

But I've given up on ever seeing such a thing from you, which is why I take your criticisms regarding believing in things without evidence with a pinch of salt.
 

Prawnapple

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which is why I take your criticisms regarding believing in things without evidence with a pinch of salt.
Okay, so I can't decide things. I guess my "decision" to respond to this thread was what exactly?

You've also just successfully confirmed that you don't care about what's true. Believing in things without evidence = belief. Belief is not a pathway to truth.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Okay, so I can't decide things. I guess my "decision" to respond to this thread was what exactly?
An illusion.

You've also just successfully confirmed that you don't care about what's true. Believing in things without evidence = belief. Belief is not a pathway to truth.
No, actually that's what we've confirmed about you when you said that it didn't matter if choice was an illusion...

But I would agree with you that truth is not the ultimate value, at least.
 

Prawnapple

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An illusion.


No, actually that's what we've confirmed about you when you said that it didn't matter if choice was an illusion...

But I would agree with you that truth is not the ultimate value, at least.
Lol, what could be greater?
 

saor

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@ no-one in particular.

Maybe another way to think about free will...

Along the spectrum of species complexity there emerges degrees of mind which permits creatures the power to choose. To choose how to act & respond. Creatures of chitin and their will seem more like automatons than eagles, and eagles less autonomous than monkeys, as though the kind of being determines the degree of will available for freeing us from automaticity.

Free will is that phenomenen by which conscious mind rises above automaticy and acts intentionally.

749825
 
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Bobbin

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@ no-one in particular.

Maybe another way to think about free will...

Along the spectrum of species complexity there emerges degrees of mind which permits creatures the power to choose. To choose how to act & respond. Creatures of chitin and their will seem more like automatons than eagles, and eagles less autonomous than monkeys, as though the kind of being determines the degree of will available for freeing us from automaticity.

Free will is that phenomenen by which conscious mind rises above automaticy and acts intentionally.

View attachment 749825
Intention is an extremely hard thing to prove, as opposed to autonomous action. The only thing that distinguishes us from "lesser" creatures intelligence wise is the ability to work with incomplete data, which is essentially what prediction is all about (the crux of intention). But then again the deepmind AI that beat all those Starcraft 2 players also worked with incomplete data.

So alas I still cannot describe free will or intentionality that is distinguishable from cause/effect. If I did I suppose I'd have a nobel prize or something :/
 
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Splinter

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I am. You just don't understand what libertarian free will is.

And there's no such thing as determanism. It is a backwards mid-evil superstition. Somebody like Sam Harris probably told you you have to be that, but you don't.
WTF is mid-evil superstition? Do you mean medieval?
 

saor

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So alas I still cannot describe free will or intentionality that is distinguishable to cause/effect. If I did I suppose I'd have a nobel prize or something :/
Your dilemma reminds me of a program to generate random numbers. We can invoke the random function RND to generate a random number.

And it feels like the software makes a random choice, but obviously RND is defined further down the line by some code, and that code can't contain an RND invocation because that would push the RND source further and further away. There's some code that explicitly defines the process by which RND arrives at outcomes, hence 'pseudo-random'.

Maybe our will is similar in that its expression is always defined further down the line by some code or causality or conditioning that we aren't aware of. We are the little train on rails who feels free, but ultimately isn't. We assume ants don't have free will yet they organize themselves appropriately. Maybe humans are also so much Brownian motion with delusions of freedom.
 

saturnz

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Your dilemma reminds me of a program to generate random numbers. We can invoke the random function RND to generate a random number.
yeah I must say we use the word random very loosely

I agree if we have sufficient information, then what appears random will no longer be random.

In my view random is the residual ignorance of knowledge.
 
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