Why you don't really have free will

Bobbin

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yeah I must say we use the word random very loosely

I agree if we have sufficient information, then what appears random will no longer be random.

In my view random is the residual ignorance of knowledge.
If random was depicted on a pool table, the balls would pass right through each other, the cue ball wouldn't even respond to being hit, everything would move independently in shocking ways with seemingly no cause, heck the pool table might as well not even be there, there'd be no rules at all, the balls might already be on the other side of the universe by now, how would they even hold their shape, maybe they're crocodiles now?

If something were truly random I wonder if it'd even be observable, because an observation requires it to have an influence/effect that brings it into the causality realm - it has rules now.

k... there goes my brain again.
 

Techne

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If random was depicted on a pool table, the balls would pass right through each other, the cue ball wouldn't even respond to being hit, everything would move independently in shocking ways with seemingly no cause, heck the pool table might as well not even be there, there'd be no rules at all, the balls might already be on the other side of the universe by now, how would they even hold their shape, maybe they're crocodiles now?

If something were truly random I wonder if it'd even be observable, because an observation requires it to have an influence/effect that brings it into the causality realm - it has rules now.

k... there goes my brain again.
Finally someone that gets it. Now all you need to do is wrap your head around the results from quantum physics and indeterminism.
 

Ponderer

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If random was depicted on a pool table, the balls would pass right through each other, the cue ball wouldn't even respond to being hit, everything would move independently in shocking ways with seemingly no cause, heck the pool table might as well not even be there, there'd be no rules at all, the balls might already be on the other side of the universe by now, how would they even hold their shape, maybe they're crocodiles now?

If something were truly random I wonder if it'd even be observable, because an observation requires it to have an influence/effect that brings it into the causality realm - it has rules now.

k... there goes my brain again.
If no free will was depicted in a game of pool, the players would have no choice in selecting their shots.
See how silly/stupid/moronic the "there is no such thing as free will" thing is?
 

Ponderer

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Does anybody that believe humans don't have free will care to respond to post #263?
No?
See how silly/stupid/moronic the "there is no such thing as free will" thing is?
See how (the ideology of) Atheism can make you to be stupid?
 

saor

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Does anybody that believe humans don't have free will care to respond to post #263?
No?
See how silly/stupid/moronic the "there is no such thing as free will" thing is?
See how (the ideology of) Atheism can make you to be stupid?
You're not making an argument. You're just pointing and calling something stupid because it doesn't appeal to your sensibilities. You're also unnecessarily bringing up atheism yet again. Not sure what kind of response you're after other than an argument where everyone is calling each other and their beliefs stupid.
 

saor

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If no free will was depicted in a game of pool, the players would have no choice in selecting their shots.
Yes and? Bees (presumably) have no choice yet they build hives and make yummy honey. A game of pool is of less cosmic importance than bees & their activities, so why is the lack of choice moronic for pool-playing humans but not moronic for bees? Or do you believe bees have the freedom to choose?
 

Ponderer

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You're not making an argument. You're just pointing and calling something stupid because it doesn't appeal to your sensibilities. You're also unnecessarily bringing up atheism yet again. Not sure what kind of response you're after other than an argument where everyone is calling each other and their beliefs stupid.
"You're not making an argument."
Oh yes I am.
It is a valid example that clearly/undeniably invalidates the "free will does not exist" argument.
To deny that the ideology of Atheism plays no part in the "free will does not exist" thing is as silly as claiming that free will does not exist.
 

saor

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"You're not making an argument."
Oh yes I am.
It is a valid example that clearly/undeniably invalidates the "free will does not exist" argument.
So are bees moronic or do bees have free will? Because all you're saying is the absence of free will seems moronic therefore free will exists. So can I conclude you believe bees have free will because their behaviour would be moronic if they didn't?
 

Bobbin

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If no free will was depicted in a game of pool, the players would have no choice in selecting their shots.
See how silly/stupid/moronic the "there is no such thing as free will" thing is?
Well the idea of having no free will is that choice is an illusion.

When I play pool I really have no idea if I'm truly in control of my choice or not.

I usually tend to select the easiest shot unless I'm feeling particularly risky for higher reward, or going for flair. My decision is a result of whatever feeling wins out in the moment. I don't know if it's possible to escape that. You can only ever do what your feelings tell you to do. Even if you try go against feeling to prove you really have choice, it's probably just another feeling of wanting to beat your feelings :p

How does one actually choose freely? I still have NFI.
 

Ponderer

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Yes and? Bees (presumably) have no choice yet they build hives and make yummy honey. A game of pool is of less cosmic importance than bees & their activities, so why is the lack of choice moronic for pool-playing humans but not moronic for bees? Or do you believe bees have the freedom to choose?
Do you agree that in a game of pool, the players clearly and undeniable choose which shot to play, and how to play it?
Do you agree that in a game of pool, the players clearly and undeniably have/use/exercise free will?
 

saor

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Do you agree that in a game of pool, the players clearly and undeniable choose which shot to play, and how to play it?
Do you agree that in a game of pool, the players clearly and undeniably have/use/exercise free will?
We have a choice, but whether the choice is truly free is what we're discussing. Your argument that an absence of freedom is moronic is not an argument. That's like saying eating roadkill is disgusting therefore eating roadkill is wrong without bothering to actually make an argument. Something not appealing to our sensibilities isn't sufficient grounds to dismiss it.
 

Bobbin

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We have a choice, but whether the choice is truly free is what we're discussing. Your argument that an absence of freedom is moronic is not an argument. That's like saying eating roadkill is disgusting therefore eating roadkill is wrong without bothering to actually make an argument. Something not appealing to our sensibilities isn't sufficient grounds to dismiss it.
It's just contradiction :p

 

Ponderer

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So are bees moronic or do bees have free will? Because all you're saying is the absence of free will seems moronic therefore free will exists. So can I conclude you believe bees have free will because their behaviour would be moronic if they didn't?
I am not saying that free will is clever or stupid.
I am saying that it is stupid (moronic) to argue that free will does not exist.
Get it?
 

Splinter

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Does anybody that believe humans don't have free will care to respond to post #263?
No?
See how silly/stupid/moronic the "there is no such thing as free will" thing is?
See how (the ideology of) Atheism can make you to be stupid?
Hey, have you defined free will yet?
 

Ponderer

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We have a choice, but whether the choice is truly free is what we're discussing. Your argument that an absence of freedom is moronic is not an argument. That's like saying eating roadkill is disgusting therefore eating roadkill is wrong without bothering to actually make an argument. Something not appealing to our sensibilities isn't sufficient grounds to dismiss it.
"Something not appealing to our sensibilities isn't sufficient grounds to dismiss it."
Huh?
 

saor

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I am saying that it is stupid (moronic) to argue that free will does not exist.
Get it?
Then **** off out of the debate? I mean seriously, if you're not open to having a discussion then what are you doing here? If your position is seriously that debating something is moronic (because duh! it must be true!) then **** me, you're exactly the same person you were when you started your first thread here many moons ago: Totally unwilling to even consider discussion.
 

Hellhound105

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I don't have free will.

Been saying, I will not be buying a Nintendo Switch lite........I bought a Switch Lite

I do not have a free will
 

saturnz

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Hey, @saturnz , still waiting on you showing where that quote comes from. It's likely me being facetious to something you chaps were saying at the time :)

And very typical sneakiness as well....

how dumb can you be, have you bothered clicking on the quote?
 
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