Why you don't really have free will

Ponderer

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I'm not even sure what you mean :)
Referring to moments/episodes that you suffer when your logic completely and utterly fails you - when you are under the impression that the pure/utter rubbish you come up with is somehow profound.
 

Prawnapple

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Referring to moments/episodes that you suffer when your logic completely and utterly fails you - when you are under the impression that the pure/utter rubbish you come up with is somehow profound.
As opposed to? The rubbish you believe that's in the bible? :laugh:
 

Ponderer

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As opposed to? The rubbish you believe that's in the bible? :laugh:
That's rich coming from someone that is so thoroughly/utterly brainwashed/indoctrinated by an ideology to the extent that they are unable/refuse to acknowledge the glaringly obvious existence of free will.
 
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Bobbin

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Referring to moments/episodes that you suffer when your logic completely and utterly fails you - when you are under the impression that the pure/utter rubbish you come up with is somehow profound.
Or, you know, that could just be your ignorance showing. I suppose that never occurred to you.
 

Prawnapple

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That's rich coming from someone that is so thoroughly/utterly brainwashed/indoctrinated by an ideology to the extent that they are unable/refuse to acknowledge the glaringly obvious existence of free will.
Consider the following:

I am told that I have free will apparently. Thank you, but no thanks, I don't want it. Can I get rid of it? This is my challenge to those who assert free will: If free will is an irrefutable and eternal fact of the universe, then I don't have a choice in the matter and it is not free. The way to resolve this self-contradiction is to presuppose no free will. It is not necessary to explain anything at all. The universe works without the supposition, you could create a duplicate of the universe, apply occam's razor where free will is insinuated, and it still behaves the same way. There would be no difference.
 

Ponderer

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Consider the following:

I am told that I have free will apparently. Thank you, but no thanks, I don't want it. Can I get rid of it? This is my challenge to those who assert free will: If free will is an irrefutable and eternal fact of the universe, then I don't have a choice in the matter and it is not free. The way to resolve this self-contradiction is to presuppose no free will. It is not necessary to explain anything at all. The universe works without the supposition, you could create a duplicate of the universe, apply occam's razor where free will is insinuated, and it still behaves the same way. There would be no difference.
Desperately doubling down.
An ideology is robbing you of your mind.
 
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Splinter

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You're welcome to put forth a counter-argument. I'll be here.
All these insults from Regurgitator, instead of a valid reply. Always something to do with the head/mind/intelligence.

And him not realising that the fact that he cannot speak to the question at hand, is shouting to the heavens that he has the weaker mind...
 

LD50

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My reference was as to AI, not a human process.

Get with the process.
Ag jisses. Check out my original question to you. Did I ask you about AI or human decision making?
Get with the process? Try reading first
 

LD50

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Maybe I have it back to front. This thread about AI free will
 

Ponderer

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Ag jisses. Check out my original question to you. Did I ask you about AI or human decision making?
Get with the process? Try reading first
Splinter tried to intimidate you with the qubit thing - woohoo me Splinter are sooo cleva.
His little sideshow did not have the desired effect on you, and he is now trying to distance himself from his failed ruse.
He likely also thinks that AI is an autonomous device or/and code.
Aaooww - Splinter is to much cleva.
 

saor

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To a lesser non-social/self-aware creature, pain might just be a reflex response. To us, it actually feels bad. How does it feel bad when bad is objectively non-existent? What is negative about it? Why is it negative? How are we so emotionally bound by it?
I'm not sure if you're asking a question specific to pain or about subjective experience generally? I don't see how pain is any different to the other subjective experiences we have: We perceive certain smells as ranging from ooh-pretty! to ugh-wtf!? There is no objective badness in the smell itself, but we experience certain inputs as positive or negative. In that regard pain is surely the mind doing the same thing? It's taking some input (nerve firings) and producing a subjective experience that moves us away from whatever is causing those firings.
 

Techne

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Consider the following:

I am told that I have free will apparently. Thank you, but no thanks, I don't want it. Can I get rid of it? This is my challenge to those who assert free will: If free will is an irrefutable and eternal fact of the universe, then I don't have a choice in the matter and it is not free. The way to resolve this self-contradiction is to presuppose no free will. It is not necessary to explain anything at all. The universe works without the supposition, you could create a duplicate of the universe, apply occam's razor where free will is insinuated, and it still behaves the same way. There would be no difference.
Hey hey hey the best argument against free will so far:ROFL: :laugh: o_O . Let me see if I can beat it.
I can't choose to make 1+1=3.
Therefore free will is false.
Tada. Done... drops the mic....
 

Swa

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Pain is an interesting example. I've tried to answer it before from a materialistic perspective, using association/relativity and describing how its intensity works. But I assume that isn't a satisfactory answer. I know what you mean though, pain isn't something that feels objective and meaningless. It's raw/primal and somehow feels very very real. It's very difficult to think that it possibly only exists in our brain as an "illusion" itself and is objectively insignificant.

It's been said to me that pain and pleasure are quite similar pattern wise in the brain, though I'm not sure how true that is.
It's an inadequate explanation. We don't need to feel pain as reflexes are adequate. As Rupert Sheldrake writes in The Science Delusion it is scientific dogma to say that consciousness is simply an arrangement of matter. There is no reason not to assume that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or energy.

I'm still waiting for @Swa to provide evidence for the above claim.
You continue to ignore that there are options. You are just unwilling to consider them and will dismiss them so you are left only with ones you feel comfortable with even though they have no evidence behind them. Your arguments are riddled with fallacies so it's no use debating with you if you are unwilling or unable to recognise them.

All these insults from Regurgitator, instead of a valid reply. Always something to do with the head/mind/intelligence.

And him not realising that the fact that he cannot speak to the question at hand, is shouting to the heavens that he has the weaker mind...
Your ignorance is showing again.
 
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