Why you don't really have free will

Prawnapple

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It's an inadequate explanation. We don't need to feel pain as reflexes are adequate. As Rupert Sheldrake writes in The Science Delusion it is scientific dogma to say that consciousness is simply an arrangement of matter. There is no reason not to assume that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or energy.
Glad you've stated where you're getting your information from now. There is every reason not to assume that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or energy.
 

Prawnapple

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Hey hey hey the best argument against free will so far:ROFL: :laugh: o_O . Let me see if I can beat it.
I can't choose to make 1+1=3.
Therefore free will is false.
Tada. Done... drops the mic....
Nice strawman. See, you CAN do that. You'd be wrong, but you certainly can.
 

The Trutherizer

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So basically you do what you do because of who you are. What you are.

And who and what you are is a very, very, very, very, very complex concept. Influenced by everything from the conditions during all the supernovae which created the heavier elements that are incorporated into your body to the sum of all the minute probabilistic quantum fluctuations and even random Brownian motion that occurred within all the organisms that evolved throughout history from the first simple life forms to you yourself.

What exactly causes any given person to make a specific decision is most likely impossible to predict with all the matter and energy currently contained in the universe apart from the unique confluence of matter that is you yourself. And thanks to quantum probabalistic effects even if we could rewind time back to the exact same place and time a decision was made there is no guarantee that the same decision will be made every time -It is simply... probable. Add in everybody else's influence... Well.

i.e. A bit of a challenge to pin down exactly. But fundamentally it is YOU making any given decision. As long as you accept that YOU do not end at your skin.
 
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Bobbin

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So basically you do what you do because of who you are. What you are.

And who and what you are is a very, very, very, very, very complex concept. Influenced by everything from the conditions during all the supernovae which created the heavier elements that are incorporated into your body to the sum of all the minute probabilistic quantum fluctuations and even random Brownian motion that occurred within all the organisms that evolved throughout history from the first simple life forms to you yourself.

What exactly causes any given person to make a specific decision is most likely impossible to predict with all the matter and energy currently contained in the universe apart from the unique confluence of matter that is you yourself. And thanks to quantum probabalistic effects even if we could rewind time back to the exact same place and time a decision was made there is no guarantee that the same decision will be made every time -It is simply... probable. Add in everybody else's influence... Well.

i.e. A bit of a challenge to pin down exactly.
I like to think who you are is just a sack of energy trying to acquire more energy without spending too much energy. Keeps things simple :p Keeps every complex part of us, complicated by billions of years of evolving and competing systems, fundamentally simple.

Am I wrong? Maybe. Probably. Who knows. But I like the simpler explanations :p I can work with that.
 

The Trutherizer

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I like to think who you are is just a sack of energy trying to acquire more energy without spending too much energy. Keeps things simple :p Keeps every complex part of us, complicated by billions of years of evolving and competing systems, fundamentally simple.

Am I wrong? Maybe. Probably. Who knows. But I like the simpler explanations :p I can work with that.
I suppose that is all there is... Unless one has a chosen or instinctive agenda, short term, or long term - Regarding what purpose the gathered energy will serve. Apart from just vegetating we do also create. Everything from humorous noises with our arm pits to babies. Even something as simple as distinct emotional states within ourselves. That is an act of creation too. Something is that was not before.
 

Swa

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Glad you've stated where you're getting your information from now. There is every reason not to assume that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or energy.
It's dogma. But I'm glad you've stated your bias and preconceptions.
 

saor

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There is every reason not to assume that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or energy.
But it's fun to imagine it might be. We wonder sometimes why order and people and peanut-butter should exist but what if part of the answer involved some fundamental force that wasn't mathematically describable? A new class of natural thing that drives complexity and the emergence of replicating entities and mammals and marmite.
 
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The Trutherizer

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Glad you've stated where you're getting your information from now. There is every reason not to assume that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or energy.
Well... every reason apart from the hint that everything we find out there including ourselves seems to be not much more than information the behaviour of which is governed by rules that we can rationalise. And for that to exist in a stable state you need at least an "attention" of some sort in some form or other.
 

Arksun

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Referring to moments/episodes that you suffer when your logic completely and utterly fails you - when you are under the impression that the pure/utter rubbish you come up with is somehow profound.
We call that "having a ponderer moment"
 

Techne

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Well, everything we know is "based on what we know" and "as far as we can tell so far" (FTFY ) and it will always be like that (Citation needed).
You need a citation for why science is not like religion :ROFL: .

1) Pray does nothing.
2) "World-view" - Who said anything about determinism? Indeterminsm still doesn't get you free will.

You somehow have to prove that it does.
Ok one more time, maybe it will sink in:
It gets you the "free" part. That is all. Just to be sure, the examples in quantum mechanics are used to explain what "free" means in the context of "free will". It is right to say that quantum indeterminacy doesn't get you free will.... just the free part.

So which is it? Freedom or determined or caused?

Can you perfectly clarify and articulate as to what that something is?
Perfectly? No. Start with what it cannot be abd work from there.
It is not nothingness. From nothing, nothing comes.
It is not pure randomness because the electron has ordered, albeit indeterminate ends.

Orly? Who says that? You? What are those dispositions, ends and / or final causes and are they dispositions, ends and or final causes?
In the example the electron with spin Sz=+½ has dispositions or natural ends or final causes towards Sx=+½ or Sx=-½ . Simple really.

What determined that order?
Its nature.

Order..... in freedom?
Uh. Ok. If you say so, though I'm not buying it one bit.
So what?

So what you're saying is, while X entails Y, Y doesn't necessary entail X.
Sounds like a fallacy to me. Can you elaborate and provide some more concrete evidence for this position?


Same false statement as above.
It is simple logic. Blue circle is indeterminacy, orange circle is randomness.
753758

Who or what is advocating for this and how does this get you to free will?
Does anybody have to advocate falsehoods for truths to be pointed out?
 

Bobbin

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I suppose that is all there is... Unless one has a chosen or instinctive agenda, short term, or long term - Regarding what purpose the gathered energy will serve. Apart from just vegetating we do also create. Everything from humorous noises with our arm pits to babies. Even something as simple as distinct emotional states within ourselves. That is an act of creation too. Something is that was not before.
It is as though the pattern of energy/survival/life tries very hard to go against the grain of universal disorder in some small way. Small little pockets of negentropy. Walking batteries, almost literally.
 

The Trutherizer

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It is as though the pattern of energy/survival/life tries very hard to go against the grain of universal disorder in some small way. Small little pockets of negentropy. Walking batteries, almost literally.
I used to think so too. But I realised that living things are actually entropy machines. Especially intelligent life. Sure we temporarily build up a seemingly ordered bodies over the course of our lifetimes so in the frame of reference of our bodies it seem we promote order. But what life needs to do to build up bodies is actually highly disruptive. The lowest entropy state for planet Earth would be if no life existed. Simple rocks. Simple minerals. Simple atmosphere. Simple everything. But from the start life has changed the planet. And we have changed it dramatically over a relatively short period. If there was no life then the planet would have barely changed from what it was 3.5 billion years ago. Stuff might have shifted here and there. Some chemistry would occur. But life has left an indelible mark upon the planet.

Life is practically entropy eddies. Intelligent life is more like entropy tornadoes.
 

Ponderer

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I used to think so too. But I realised that living things are actually entropy machines. Especially intelligent life. Sure we temporarily build up a seemingly ordered bodies over the course of our lifetimes so in the frame of reference of our bodies it seem we promote order. But what life needs to do to build up bodies is actually highly disruptive. The lowest entropy state for planet Earth would be if no life existed. Simple rocks. Simple minerals. Simple atmosphere. Simple everything. But from the start life has changed the planet. And we have changed it dramatically over a relatively short period. If there was no life then the planet would have barely changed from what it was 3.5 billion years ago. Stuff might have shifted here and there. Some chemistry would occur. But life has left an indelible mark upon the planet.

Life is practically entropy eddies. Intelligent life is more like entropy tornadoes.
Yes - one can say that life resists/reverses entropy.
Whereas Entropy tends to Chaos, Life tends to Order.
 

Prawnapple

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Yes - one can say that life resists/reverses entropy.
Whereas Entropy tends to Chaos, Life tends to Order.
I've been thinking about this lately. I don't believe it's possible to reverse entropy. It's more likely what you're seeing in life is a resistance to entropy, but certainly not a reversal. It's indeed the increasing entropy of the universe which gave rise to life to begin with.
 

Ponderer

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I've been thinking about this lately. I don't believe it's possible to reverse entropy. It's more likely what you're seeing in life is a resistance to entropy, but certainly not a reversal. It's indeed the increasing entropy of the universe which gave rise to life to begin with.
You absolutely sure of that?

<edit>
Hint: Do things naturally tend to order, or do things naturally tend to chaos.
 
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Prawnapple

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You absolutely sure of that?

<edit>
Hint: Do things naturally tend to order, or do things naturally tend to chaos.
Depends on your perspective or what you consider to be order or chaos. They're words to describe something. To most scientists, the beginning of time, when the universe was hot and dense, that was said to be uniform and orderly. Since then things became disorderly, less uniform and chaotic. In the heat death, I'm sure the universe could be seen as orderly again when there's just single photons and electrons and quark pairs shooting all around the universe on their own, unable to form new atoms. But again, you could see that as chaos instead. You could have both as well. On earth, you could consider life to be orderly, but who's to say there's not life that's unordered, or even more orderly than us elsewhere in the universe? From that perspective, such an advanced lifeform could see us as chaotic and disorderly. So to answer your question, things tend to both order and chaos.

Examples of chaos would be supermassive black holes swallowing entire star systems and ejecting huge streams of radiation, destroying everything in their path as they spew out light-years long across spacetime. Also, supernovas are pretty chaotic and intense, but then planets and new starts form from that. On the other hand, there are rocks... just solid, unmoving rocks... just sort of chilling in space and time. So yeah, the universe consists of both chaos and order.

You absolutely sure of that?
Yes
 
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