Why you don't really have free will

Swa

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It’s amazing the lengths you guys will go to to have your superstitions validated. It’s like you have to have atheists recognise your beliefs are legitimate so you can be on the same page as an equal. Not that we are not equals of course, but by not accepting your superstitions and quite frankly finding it all a bit ridiculous, it clearly irks that we don’t take you serious.

But I really don’t know why you’re not happy and content with your “choice” of worshiping your god and ignoring the rest of us while we get on with real life. I’m happy and I want you to be too. So sure. Belief, non belief, whatever makes you happy is good for me. Life’s just too short to argue semantics.
It's amazing the lengths you guys will go through in order not to deal with your superstitions. I am not asking for anything to be validated for me and quite frankly I don't give a crap what you accept or not.
 

SaiyanZ

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Why do people have to keep claiming in so many threads that their beliefs are non-beliefs?
Lets assume you're Muslim. Someone mentions the great Flying Spagetti Monster God and that they worship Him. You say it sounds a bit crazy and untrue.

Do you now have a belief about the great Flying Spagetti Monster God?
 

Techne

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Well you've just redefined the terms (not sure why). For proper usage, causal refers to causal determinism in the free will debate (All events have a cause) as opposed to Indeterminism (Some events do not have a cause). If every event has a cause, there is no “true randomness” in the sense of an uncaused event.

EDIT: So to me, Causal = Determinate. Acausal falls in with Random and Indeterminate (if you really need to bring random and all of its ambiguity into it).
To me random implies acausal and there is a distinction between an indeterministic event and an
Lets assume you're Muslim. Someone mentions the great Flying Spagetti Monster God and that they worship Him. You say it sounds a bit crazy and untrue.

Do you now have a belief about the great Flying Spagetti Monster God?
The bolded part gives it away.
 

SaiyanZ

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The bolded part gives it away.
If that is a belief then I don't know how the religious folk actually manage without going mad. They have to deal in absolutes as they can't be partially religious and partially believe in a God. It's all or nothing.

So every time someone mentions another God to them they have to compartmentalize it and process it into another belief (if not-believing is a belief), add it to the countless other non-beliefs they have, and store it away. Since if they don't do this then they also believe in the other God by these rules.
 

Techne

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If that is a belief then I don't know how the religious folk actually manage without going mad. They have to deal in absolutes as they can't be partially religious and partially believe in a God. It's all or nothing.

So every time someone mentions another God to them they have to compartmentalize it and process it into another belief (if not-believing is a belief), add it to the countless other non-beliefs they have, and store it away. Since if they don't do this then they also believe in the other God by these rules.
You just have an ignorant view of religious people.
 

Swa

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Lets assume you're Muslim. Someone mentions the great Flying Spagetti Monster God and that they worship Him. You say it sounds a bit crazy and untrue.

Do you now have a belief about the great Flying Spagetti Monster God?
Yes

If that is a belief then I don't know how the religious folk actually manage without going mad. They have to deal in absolutes as they can't be partially religious and partially believe in a God. It's all or nothing.

So every time someone mentions another God to them they have to compartmentalize it and process it into another belief (if not-believing is a belief), add it to the countless other non-beliefs they have, and store it away. Since if they don't do this then they also believe in the other God by these rules.
There's no such thing as a non-belief. Once something enters your mind you form a belief. Yet somehow most of us don't go crazy whether we're religious or not.
 

saor

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Screw it then.
:X3:
It's the classic atheist copout of having a "non-belief". You don't have a non-belief. Your head isn't empty so give yourself more credit than that.
The point of saying 'non-belief', is that its pointing to a class of objects about which non-beliefs are had. You don't currently have an active belief in a deity called Zorb. Your belief in Zorb wasn't active in your mind prior to reading this; you don't dwell during the day on Zorb because Zorb, in your mind, falls into the class of objects about which active beliefs aren't necessary and don't occur.

If I were to ask you: "Do you believe in the god Zorb", you would then say: "No, I don't". So yes, In that brief moment you held in your mind an active belief about Zorb. But that grasp is soon lost, because Zorb is so unreal to you that it recedes again into the class of things about which active beliefs don't occur.

For some of us, God is in that class with Zorb.
And that's sometimes what's meant by a 'non-belief'.
 

SaiyanZ

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Yes


There's no such thing as a non-belief. Once something enters your mind you form a belief. Yet somehow most of us don't go crazy whether we're religious or not.
Ok, here's a list of thousands of Gods. Should keep you busy for a long time. From this one post I've given you thousands of beliefs that you have just formed and cannot avoid. It's stuck with you for the rest of your life. I have such power now, it's great.

 

Swa

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Screw it then.
:X3:
The point of saying 'non-belief', is that its pointing to a class of objects about which non-beliefs are had. You don't currently have an active belief in a deity called Zorb. Your belief in Zorb wasn't active in your mind prior to reading this; you don't dwell during the day on Zorb because Zorb, in your mind, falls into the class of objects about which active beliefs aren't necessary and don't occur.

If I were to ask you: "Do you believe in the god Zorb", you would then say: "No, I don't". So yes, In that brief moment you held in your mind an active belief about Zorb. But that grasp is soon lost, because Zorb is so unreal to you that it recedes again into the class of things about which active beliefs don't occur.

For some of us, God is in that class with Zorb.
And that's sometimes what's meant by a 'non-belief'.
That is nonsense and not comparable. It isn't the first time atheists hear about God when approached with the subject. So it doesn't matter if someone thinks about it all day or not, they still hold a belief they can convey when asked about it. And judging by how much some has to say on here they indeed think quite a lot about it and what their beliefs are.

Ok, here's a list of thousands of Gods. Should keep you busy for a long time. From this one post I've given you thousands of beliefs that you have just formed and cannot avoid. It's stuck with you for the rest of your life. I have such power now, it's great.

That's a straw man argument. We aren't talking about thousands but about one. And no you didn't because quite frankly I am not interested in visiting the link and forming beliefs over something that has no influence in my life. We can talk about ones like Zeus or Thor but even that would be a waste of time because it doesn't change the simple fact that atheists have beliefs about God unless it's the first time they ever heard of Him, which we know isn't the case.
 

SaiyanZ

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And no you didn't because quite frankly I am not interested in visiting the link and forming beliefs over something that has no influence in my life.
Well done, this is progress. Now you know how an atheist thinks. The way you dismissed my post/link is the same way an atheist dismisses your god and does not form beliefs around it.
 

Swa

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Well done, this is progress. Now you know how an atheist thinks. The way you dismissed my post/link is the same way an atheist dismisses your god and does not form beliefs around it.
Except that atheists do form beliefs, or did you miss that part of my post? You're also assuming that everyone thinks like that where it's indeed the case that some display having an obsession with their "non-belief".
 

SaiyanZ

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Except that atheists do form beliefs, or did you miss that part of my post? You're also assuming that everyone thinks like that where it's indeed the case that some display having an obsession with their "non-belief".
You're pretending not to comprehend so I m wasting my time here.

You have not formed beliefs about the gods I have told you about. You do not have a belief about them now by your own admittance. Exactly the same thing as an atheist. Nothing more to be said about this.

Also regarding you mentioning we are just talking about one god. No we're not. That's your own bias. There's no reason why your god is more important than another you have not heard of. Some gods are just more spoken about because of populism. When everything is hearsay, populism wins.
 
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saor

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That is nonsense and not comparable. It isn't the first time atheists hear about God when approached with the subject. So it doesn't matter if someone thinks about it all day or not, they still hold a belief they can convey when asked about it. And judging by how much some has to say on here they indeed think quite a lot about it and what their beliefs are.
I'm not quite following where this leads?
If I concede and say: "Yes, I hold the belief that God doesn't exit."
Then what?
What's the 'Aha!' the theist then shouts out toward the atheist as though they've got them checkmated into a position?
 

Techne

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You're pretending not to comprehend so I m wasting my time here.

You have not formed beliefs about the gods I have told you about. You do not have a belief about them now by your own admittance. Exactly the same thing as an atheist. Nothing more to be said about this.
Except of course the belief that I don't know anything about them and that I will be acting like an ignorant fool if I were to comment on them. Apparently atheists lack this belief too :X3: :ROFL: .


Also regarding you mentioning we are just talking about one god. No we're not. That's your own bias. There's no reason why your god is more important than another you have not heard of. Some gods are just more spoken about because of populism. When everything is hearsay, populism wins.
Yeah it is now well documented that atheists are unable to talk about the concept of God without dragging religion into the discussion. Shame.
 

Swa

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You're pretending not to comprehend so I m wasting my time here.

You have not formed beliefs about the gods I have told you about. You do not have a belief about them now by your own admittance. Exactly the same thing as an atheist. Nothing more to be said about this.

Also regarding you mentioning we are just talking about one god. No we're not. That's your own bias. There's no reason why your god is more important than another you have not heard of. Some gods are just more spoken about because of populism. When everything is hearsay, populism wins.
I think you're the one pretending not to comprehend. I did not form beliefs about them because you in fact didn't tell me about any of them. It's not the same as atheism, not even remotely. Its just a red herring from the argument.

This isn't about importance. It's about the concept of God and when it comes to that atheists do have beliefs. Yeah I get you don't consider it important. Doesn't change that it comes up often enough and in most cases was a big part of atheists' initial lives. You're not an uneducated amazon barbarian who've just heard me shout "God".

I'm not quite following where this leads?
If I concede and say: "Yes, I hold the belief that God doesn't exit."
Then what?
What's the 'Aha!' the theist then shouts out toward the atheist as though they've got them checkmated into a position?
It's not about you then. It's about the guy who claims he has a non-belief because he does not see his negative belief as being a belief. It's a cop-out of sitting on the fence without actually sitting on the fence.
 
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