Why you don't really have free will

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
Could you elaborate? I just want to understand why you think "rebelling" against the biggest ******* in the history of humanity (the jew god, aka the god of Abraham) is a bad thing?
Because its the silly reasoning of a rebellious child.
 

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,901
Because its the silly reasoning of a rebellious child.
This is such a non-issue. Do you think the child had any free will to be rebellious and do you think god knew this was going to happen, and then still let it happen?
 

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
This is such a non-issue. Do you think the child had any free will to be rebellious and do you think god knew this was going to happen, and then still let it happen?
On the contrary - it is very much the issue.
The child has free will (can choose) to obey or not obey.
And yes - GOD knew it was going to happen, HE let it happen, and HE still lets it happen.
 

Scary_Turtle

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
1,421
I am not trying to tell you what to believe.
I am trying to make you understand what it is you believe.
Nope you telling me what I believe and doing it again. Considering you don't believe in organizations (churches) and have made up your own beliefs like Charles Manson and Joseph Smith you arguments are about as valid as theirs.

It means not my feelings/emotions.
Literally the opposite of what you where saying :rolleyes:

BTW - I understand your anger/rage and irrational thinking better than most.
I used to be a hardened Atheist, and behaved in the same way.
I don't believe you for a second on this, I have questioned you on this point because if you were a "hardened Atheist" (there is no proof God exists) then in order to believe in God proof had to be presented.

You then went on to tell me nothing changed, which either means you were never an Atheist (most likely) or you never told me the truth about this proof. Either way makes you a liar and is a bit sad that you have to go to these extremes to prove yourself right.

I have no rage towards anyone but don't suffer fools, I do understand your rage always being proven wrong is irritating but the penny will drop eventually.
 
Last edited:

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
Nope you telling me what I believe and doing it again. Considering you don't believe in organizations (churches) and have made up your own beliefs like Charles Manson and Joseph Smith you arguments are about as valid as theirs.



Literally the opposite of what you where saying :rolleyes:


I don't believe you for a second on this, I have questioned you on this point because if you were a "hardened Atheist" (there is no proof God exists) then in order to believe in God proof had to be presented.

You then went on to tell me nothing changed, which either means you were never an Atheist (most likely) or you never told me truth about this proof. Either way makes you a liar and is a bit sad that you have to go to these extremes to prove yourself right.

I have no rage towards anyone but don't suffer fools, I do understand your rage always being proven wrong is irritating but the penny will drop eventually.
Okaaayyy then.
Believe what you want.
 

Arksun

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
1,546
Fking hell these Ponderer loops are getting tiresome.
That's the whole point. To tire you out. Ponderer isn't here to debate sincerely. He gets his jollies from these threads by asking a stupid question, prompting you to write out a whole essay to which he responds with the equivalent of a grunt and another stupid question. Rinse, repeat.

This section might be called "philosophical debates", but it's a long shot from a real debate section. Debates are moderated and trolls like that one gets removed.
 

Arksun

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
1,546
Yes


There's no such thing as a non-belief. Once something enters your mind you form a belief. Yet somehow most of us don't go crazy whether we're religious or not.
No, once something enters your mind, you form an opinion.
 

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
That's the whole point. To tire you out. Ponderer isn't here to debate sincerely. He gets his jollies from these threads by asking a stupid question, prompting you to write out a whole essay to which he responds with the equivalent of a grunt and another stupid question. Rinse, repeat.

This section might be called "philosophical debates", but it's a long shot from a real debate section. Debates are moderated and trolls like that one gets removed.
And your contribution to this thread is?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Swa

Scary_Turtle

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
1,421
You quite often accuse others of intellectual dishonesty, but that is exactly what you are now doing.
Hypocrite.
Is that not the most correct answer I can answer.

I know it wouldn't be walking on water because I've seen Chris angel do that so quite honestly I have no idea.

Only God can answer that and he's "missing" I guess is the term.

So please explain how I'm being a hypocrite or another argument of ignorance from you?
 

Ponderer

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
3,471
Is that not the most correct answer I can answer.

I know it wouldn't be walking on water because I've seen Chris angel do that so quite honestly I have no idea.

Only God can answer that and he's "missing" I guess is the term.

So please explain how I'm being a hypocrite or another argument of ignorance from you?
You ask for proof, refuse to define/stipulate such proof, and then claim that you are not intellectually dishonest.
To top it off, you further claim that the logic I used be arguments from ignorance, but you are (ironically) unable to recognise that it is exactly the other way round.
 

Techne

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
12,408
With hard determinism, purpose and intentionality would be regarded differently. These words would only describe the perceived function and observation from a specific point of view or frame of reference. These words would have no metaphysical attachment to anything.

So when I speak of a purpose in hard determinism language, I would be merely describing an assigned function or the suitability of something. That function is arbitrary and is nominated only in my immediate interaction, only in the moment.

When I speak of intention in hard determinism language, I would be merely compartmentalizing a subject and ascribing a perceived pattern to it from my frame of reference. My (subject) intention is to do X (pattern).

One thought I have: It might be a consequence of sensory/knowledge limitation and being stuck in a frame of reference that commands our perception and language on any given subject. We can only reference things, not relay the direct experience. It ain't easy speaking in meaning you're hard-wired against.
If you say "one thought I have" then it either means intentionality is true and materialism is false or you really do not have a thought (thought are about something ... intentionality)
Matter does not have intentionality if materliasm is true.

Now you can go around and redefine words to mean whatever you want, all you are doing is demonstrating either that you are really acting towards and end and thus demonstrating teleology is true or or you are not really thinking. Pick your pick, it really is that simple.
 

Arksun

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
1,546
How is an opinion different from a belief?
Um.. no. I literally just put forward what you're doing here and you expect me to think I'll have a conversation with you? Jeez, you're even dumber than I thought.

Go look it up in a dictionary.
 
Last edited:

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
23,833
Here we go with this projecting again. Is it my fault you guys are having a few home truths pointed out that you clearly don’t want to have to consider they might apply to you? Maybe you should stay away from debating your beliefs if you can’t handle it? I’ve said multiple times in this thread and others “who said I’m right”? I’ve said many times enjoy your religion, you clearly are comfortable with it. But nope, you clearly all have to have approval from the world and need validation. And then when you get questioned, we end up like this.

Personal attacks. Very classy. Except I’m not anonymous. I’ve been to meets and met a few people from here. They know who I am, so does my wife after 28 years of marriage btw. And you are very welcome to meet me at any time and I’ll happily sit and talk to you.

Funny how you think it’s okay to randomly talk about these things socially. Is this because maybe you lot are used to preaching? You are certainly used to having a prayer before a meal or event where you don’t know everyone in attendance and don’t care if they are Christian or not. You are, so that’s all that counts.

But yeah, easy to point the finger at the bringer of bad news and things you don’t want to have to consider. But if you don’t want to hear what I think about your religion, why are you here talking about it?

Go and enjoy it. Who said I’m right?

Except clearly I am when Techne still hasn’t answered his accusations and you say I’m avoiding them. Point them out and I’ll gladly have a look. If I’m wrong I’ll happily concede. My life doesn’t depend on it.

Oh sorry, I’m being an obnoxious snot nose kid again. I guess that happens anytime you read something that messes with your world view.
Blah blah blah. You're not pointing out any home truths. You're waffling over things and then when you get an answer you can't respond to that answer. Sounds more to me like you're the one projecting who cannot face the reality about his own convictions. Sounds more like you're the one needing validation.

I never said that, but then again, this is projection city.
Uh... I just turned your argument around. So if I'm projecting then so were you.

Wew Lad, the Ad-Hominems are getting crazy now.
Yeah they are. Wonder who started them...

One day you will also realise that bad things don't happen to you because your preferred version of god is angry with you, but instead because there's no other way the thing could have happened. God is not needed in such an instance or equation, not now, not ever. So perhaps, when you fall off your high horse, you will also realise this.
Huh? Where did I say that? Or is this just more generalisation?

So humor me please: Does Zeus exist?

Or do you take the ground of undecided agnosticism regarding Zeus, Santa & Allah because you're unable to deny their existence by virtue of having no proof of their non-existence?

If that's true, then how do you worship God with all your heart knowing other gods might be real?
I don't know. I don't believe he does. Perhaps he does but I don't believe he has an effect on me or my life. I also don't see how it has a bearing on my belief in God.

No, once something enters your mind, you form an opinion.
Redefine things however you want. Still doesn't change that you have a belief about that something.
 
Top